The Warlike Origins of ‘Going Dutch’ | Hacker News Reader

The Warlike Origins of ‘Going Dutch’

atlasobscura.com

42 pointsDoreenMichele41 comments

So I'm sure this exists in other countries too, but in the Netherlands there is this website called "wie betaalt wat", which roughly translates to "who pays what/something".

When going out you take turns paying and just keep track of how much you paid. Then at the end of the night (or the next day, or whenever) everyone fills the amount they paid, and once that is done the website calculates how to evenly spread the net cost with the least mount of cash transfers.

Basically, splitting the bill is such an essential part of Dutch culture - even though most people I know are not aware of this actually being called "going Dutch" in English-speaking countries - that we automated it.

[0] https://wiebetaaltwat.nl/about/what

Younger people everywhere do this, especially in non-pub cultures where its not likely that the same group of people will meet up again. In the US its extremely common to split things - only some business meetings, family gatherings or extremely close friends is a group all paid as one, or sometimes one person pays while everyone uses a payment app to pay them back.

From what I gather, we are still struggling to sort this out in the US. My personal opinion is that this practice is directly related in some way to the unusually good track record of women's rights in the Netherlands.

Many people use splitwise for this.

Ironically enough, out of the several dozens of wars the Dutch and the English/British fought where both parties were involved, in more wars we fought together rather than against each other (I forgot where I read that the other day). So in that sense the commonly held idea that we're 'long term rivals' is not correct. (I also don't remember if that accounted for 'number of years at war against/together', that may skew things).

And if William and Mary had had an heir you might very well have seen the Dutch and English united under one crown. Well, Crown for the English, Stadtholder for the Dutch.

How do people from the Netherlands refer to themselves? "Dutch" or "Netherlander"? Have Netherlanders shied away from the word "Dutch", as a reaction to the derogatory connotation that the word carries in English?

I'm asking because I read somewhere that "Dutch" was the original term used by inhabitants of the Rhine delta to describe themselves.

Dutch person here with my anecdote. Call myself Dutch and didn't know 'Dutch' has a derogatory connotation. Never heard the term 'Netherlander'

Anyone can derogate any nationality, but that doesn't make the word itself derogatory.

Some terms were once acceptable, but with widespread racism in the 20th century are now offensive (British English examples: Paki and Jap), but Dutch is certainly not one of these. There is no other reasonable word for a person from the Netherlands.

Hmm, given this description I would also expect there to be plenty of use of "English" as a denigrating term in Dutch, but... I can't think of any. Is that just me?

I was struggling with the same dilemma. I'm dutch, fluent in english, and cannot think of one insulting phrase specific to the English.

Of course: if one's superior and winning, one has no need for mocking.

;-)

While I do not remember specifics, most of the less friendly terms my Dutch grand parents used about the British Isles (any country) were mostly in reference to before the 1940s (e.g. bad steering practices near the coast with the result of running aground on the sandbanks). The drop in usage after that date might explain something.

Edit: it might also just be generational

Well, except for "going Dutch" and "Dutch oven" all those phrases have fallen out of use, or in other words all the obviously denigrating phrases about the Dutch are gone. So its not surprising that if there were any similar expressions in the Dutch language they might be gone too.

not really.. Dutch courage, Dutch uncle and Dutch comfort are common enough

Double Dutch very common also.

As a Dutchman in London I was a bit appalled by the use of 'Dutch Courage' on a pub sign. It's not terribly civil of our British friends to use these phrases but knowing the context makes it all right - I mean, we both know our navy has always been better, we should let them have this one.

In the US, it gets called liquid courage. As far as I know, it isn't particularly derogatory and is often used comically or compassionately, such as showing a guy in a story being hit on by an especially pretty girl saying "Excuse me," and taking a shot of liquor before saying yes to her.

I hear the Dutch use that same phrase in the Netherlands, and they don't see it as derogatory.

We use the term “moed indrinken”, if that is what you mean.

[1] http://context.reverso.net/translation/dutch-english/moed+in...

Well, I've had Dutch use the phrase "Dutch Courage" in English when speaking to me about their drinking habits. You can be the judge.

> The Dutch oven, a lidded pot that can be used for baking, may or may not be part of this trend: It’s not truly an oven, but the Dutch may have simply been good at producing them.

I don't think anyone who uses the term 'Dutch oven' is referring to cookware, and the definition they're using is far more insulting to the Dutch.

> I don't think anyone who uses the term 'Dutch oven' is referring to cookware

_anyone_ is an incorrect overstatement: this style of cast-iron pot or "dutch oven" is quite popular for baking bread and similar uses

https://www.amazon.com/Lodge-L8DD3-Double-Dutch-5-Quart/dp/B...

> I don't think anyone who uses the term 'Dutch oven' is referring to cookware

It's the first thing that comes to mind. It's the definition I first heard about 45 years ago, as a Boy Scout. It's also the top results in a Google search. Those look nicer than the ones I used in scouting; but, the picture at the top of the Wikipedia entry could be one my scout troop used.

I have a dutch oven, specifically sold with that name in Australia by the Danish (not Dutch) manufacturer Scanpan.

http://www.scanpan.com.au/products/view/185/dutch-oven-26cm-...

It's a fairly common piece of cookware here. I've got absolutely no idea what insulting definition you're talking about...

The fart-under-the-blankets thing is called a "dutch oven" by analogy to the cast iron cookware. IOW if you don't know about the cookware, you haven't gotten the joke.

I'm a native English speaker, and had never heard the "farting under the covers" definition [1].

That said, I would call the cooking pot a casserole.

[1] https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Dutch%20Oven

I would call a purely ceramic cooking pot a casserole, but a cast iron (or enameled cast iron) version is a "dutch" oven.

I have both in my collection, but the "dutch ovens" can be used on a range or in the oven. The "casserole" can be used in the oven or in the microwave, but are not suitable for stovetop use.

When I've shopped for the cast iron version, amazon lists them under "dutch oven".

One of our larger enameled cast iron "dutch ovens" is a favorite pot used for many things. Originally got it for baking bread (basically allows a cheap electric oven to be as good as a high-end gas oven for making bread), but it's also ideal for braising, stews, etc. To use a ceramic "casserole" for some of those, I'd need to use a separate pan to brown things and then transfer them to the ceramic casserole; using the cast iron pot for them allows for everything to be done in a single pot.

Interesting. Around here (Vancouver BC) I would call the casserole the type of food inside the pot. "I'm cooking a casserole tonight."

There are a number of types of 'casserole dishes' which are usually more-or-less rectangular dishes with a lid meant for oven use (usually glass or ceramic, sometimes enamel). The Dutch Oven is a round type of a casserole dish.

I'd never even heard of the cooking Dutch Oven until the internet and hearing Americans refer to it. They're not particularly common in the UK at all in my experience.

I would expect 80%+ //edit// UK people to immediately think of farting under the covers if I asked them what it meant.

Yes, same here - never heard thus referred to something other than trapped farts. I'm Australian but have lived in the UK for the last decade and this applies to both countries, you'd call the pot a 'casserole dish'

Yep. I had no idea until now that it was an actual cooking thing either.

Yes, I'm not sure why the original post is being downvoted. It's exactly right!

This site is predominantly American. Thus, if you ever say, "I don't think anyone ..." it will be understood by a large segment of the viewership here to mean, "I don't think any American ..." So if you don't mean to say that, it's probably wise to specify where you're from before making broad comments.

A Dutch oven is a very common cooking vessel in the Atlantic USA. It has strong roots in colonial America, many traditional foods are cooked in them. It's colonial roots are precisely where the name comes from, they were originally produced in the Netherlands and shipped to the colonies (who were prohibited from producing iron goods very early on by the Crown). Additionally, it's widely used during camping, which is still a popular passtime in the American midwest.

> Thus, if you ever say, "I don't think anyone ..." it will be understood by a large segment of the viewership here to mean, "I don't think any American ..."

People on HN or anywhere else on the internet should not assume everyone else is American. Obvious hint: they're on the internet.

> it's probably wise to specify where you're from before making broad comments.

No. If someone has a different experience, it's better to ask where they're from. I can afford the downvotes for a little bit of priciple.

I'm just helping you understand where the downvotes are coming from. You're right that the HN should be less Americanocentric, but it isn't.

If you had said, "here in Australia ..." people probably would have given you an upvote. FWIW, I try to preface my cultural statements with "here in the Midwestern US" for the same reasons: I try to provide context for my statements to people from different regions because what applies here, does not apply in Texas or California.

No problem. I already understand where the downvotes are coming from, you don't need to explain.

I'd edit my comment to add a "I'm from X" but it was too late and I'm not particularly concerned with points.

The best part was people keep talking about Dutch ovens with boy scouts which, in Aus or the UK, sounds like they're discussing farting in a tent.

At least in the upper Midwest, USA the term Dutch oven would immediately evoke the cooking pot. They’re pretty common.

I've done an awful lot of Dutch oven cooking with my Boy Scout troop. I never once thought the term meant anything other than the cast iron pot.

Well, not everyone knows that hilarious apocryphal story from the disastrous honeymoon of Ernest Borgnine and Ethel Merman, so you might be overestimating the audience. I do know the story, but still think of cookware first. But I'm from the midwest, so that might be why.

I find it interesting that someone would think that. Where I grew up in Atlantic Canada they're really common, if a bit old fashioned. They also came up in Boy Scouts a lot. Basically a go to culinary tool for old ladies and young outdoorsmen.

> Basically a go to culinary tool for old ladies and young outdoorsmen.

and, oddly enough, for artisinal sourdough bread hipsters.

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