China's largest electric scooter maker Niu files for $150M IPO in the US | Hacker News Reader

China's largest electric scooter maker Niu files for $150M IPO in the US

electrek.co

46 pointsjseliger61 comments

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There are already 100 million (!) electro scooters in use in China:

https://www.accessmagazine.org/fall-2010/electric-two-wheele...

This mega trend went mostly unnoticed in the West.

Update: now 200mio

(sorry for posting this the 4th time in two weeks, but it's a perfect fit and important)

China also has the most share bikes too! They’re just mostly on piles of dumped to rust.

Yes, and most big cities there go crazy trying to ban them. Shanghai is the only notable exception

Yamaha, Honda + some other Japanese brand dominate this market in volume. They’re the ones that will switch over to electric without issue. The Japanese are definitely waiting longer than normal. But they’re the ones that will have the largest car and motorbike producers to make the switch when they want.

I’ve riden a Niu. Was nothing new or exciting. GPS, lcd and apps are the last thing people want out of a scooter. Go and back. Go and back. Go and back. That’s all a scooter is and will be used for. Because scooters a cheap item.

They make great engines but do they make great battery and motors too? What other parts are sophisticated on a scooter? How would they compete with Chinese rivals? I live in China but have never seen anything from any manufacturer other than local ones. I've always wondered why there isn't a Honda scooter. It seems these scooters tend to weigh and ride more like bicycles (light & slow) rather than motorcycles (heavy and fast). Do they require very different design / manufacture skillsets? Some analysis on this would make interesting reading.

https://www.atherenergy.com/

This is the Indian player. Trually the first real forward thinking “scooter” I’ve seen that’s electric. Completely rebuilt from the “ground up” I’d say. Niu is slapped together hedge fund money.

Ather is cool-looking but also seems to be shipping in one city, if that; I'd like to see a bit more scale first. With scooters, I also think removable batteries are the way to go: that makes them harder to steal, in at least one dimension, and easier to recharge for apartment-dwellers.

Apartments need to build charging areas. Bringing a lithium ion battery into your home is a bad idea. Any apartment complex with any liability will ban them.

Tesla’s and Ferrari’s get stolen. Everything can be stolen. That’s what insurance is for.

Most “scooters” in china are more like peddled scooters. Most people go to and from a short distance. Under 48v maybe 15Ah. That’s giving you about 30km or under real range. Most bikes use lead acid and are heavy as anything to carry around. Most goto the shops which is downstairs and maybe 10-20km max a day if at all on their bikes. The ones that need further might buy a lithium battery. But then there’s the cost, cheap scooter 1399rmb expensive lithium scooter 3000-6000. The niu is a Bosch motor. So nothing unique or engineered about it. It’s some oem with plastic and an app developer. They’re light. They’re basic. They’re cheap. Now go sit on a Yamaha 110 scooter. Or 125 scooter. Those are built well. They run nice and they’re great fun. All Yamaha needs to do is take an electric motor (easy) and place that with a locally sourced (Panasonic, Sanyo, Sony) battery and boom. Niu useless and the app became even more so. If anything. Indian made bikes are the only thing that could compete with Yamaha and Honda. There’s some real innovation coming out of there. I can’t remember the name of one bike. But it had an in built lcd panel that was actually useful with inbuilt maps, a super charging network, custom designed motor and a aluminium milled body. Really neat stuff. India is coming!

who needs a builtin lcd panel when you can just plug in your phone?

Who needs a built in lcd at all? No one. Butter Indian designers built maps in. That’s useful and the only reason anyone needs that. Also who needs two hands on the handle bars when you can plug in your phone and ride with one on the throttle and the other on maps. There is 0 use for plugging a phone into a scooter. Nor is it even safe to build that as a feature. You’re phone is not your priority whilst riding.

Another thought: I'm not familiar with the typical demography of Hondas and Yamahas, but in China the typical scooter user seems very different from a stereotypical motorcycle rider. The former would be a female, aged 35-50, lives within ~10km from work, possibly as home cleaner, waitress etc, who would perhaps never touch a motorcycle, who wouldn't be able or willing to get a license for motorcycle too.

I suppose it makes sense for incumbent brands to delay: they'd like to control when and how this cannibalizes their existing product lines.

I feel Toyota is cushy with oil interests. So they’re definitely acting the slowest. Think about the major markets for scooters. Taiwan, Indonesia, Phillipines, Malaysia, Vietnam, Thailand. Going to be a very tough break up on oil for these countries. Not sure they’ll afford to retool to electric. Especially the dealer network that runs off repairs and parts. Considering an electric scooter is easily maintained and repaired.

I wouldn’t write off China in any industry. Due to legislation and economics of car ownership there are cities where 90 % of the traffic is electric scooters. There is a lot of expertise in building them. In addition Chinese are very keen adopters of mobile tech, although I agree in this case it seems gimmicky

90% peddled scooters. Not scooters or mopeds. They’re crappy two sweaters with peddles and a heavy under feet lead acid battery. They’re junk. Niu is a polished version of a cheap plastic scooter around the same concept. Who on earth wants to pull their battery out really when it weighs 14kg and you need to do it twice? They’re selling a china only problem in Europe. Zero thought.

They're very cool electric scooters with long lasting light batteries, for around $2000 USD. Didn't see a single "pedalled" scooter there.

apparently they are very useful for Chinese people otherwise they wouldn't buy millions of them. and what's so different about Europe/US cities?

You can’t ride one of these cheaply made scooters legally on a footpath anywhere but the USA where 700w is ok without a license or insurance without finding some legal trouble. They’re mostly 350w-500w in China. Which makes them illegal to use in China and in Europe. They’re constantly taken off the roads in China by the police. In Europe the distance would be greater to travel and elevation too. China’s cities are mostly flat roads as theyre bulldozed and concreted. Have fun riding 250w up a hill with two Germans that weigh 90kg and are 6 foot 2.

That depends on which country and which brand I am looking at getting a proper scooter in the Uk and it's pretty much down to which Vespa variant do I get and how I get it customised.

And do get a second hand 125 one for a few months before going for the full bike licence and buying a new 300 Gts.

Exactly. Because the price is no longer cheap. So you want quality and your quality to price point is a Vespa. In Asia it’s a Yamaha or a Honda. They’re the biggest markets and the quality their is still great. They only have to pivot to electric to beat niu with the same designs. But the kWh is the only thing stopping that. But Panasonic and Tesla are already leading the price on lithium ion and density and Panasonic is Japanese. Japan and India will take this market. China just doesn’t build decent vehicles. And by decent. I mean really refined.

Wonder what Kymco and SanYang are doing in the electric scooter market given their dominance in some markets.

The headline is factually incorrect. The biggest maker of eScooters in China is Jiangsu Aima Manufacturing.

NIU is not even third or fourth.

I'm impatiently waiting for the Gogoro scooters to come to Europe to buy one, I don't know why they are taking so long :(

I saw them in Berlin?

https://joincoup.com/en/berlin/how-it-works

Afaik, they are only for rent and capped at 25kph (same Paris). And even those one cannot just buy as an individual I believe.

I would like to own the real deal like in Taiwan - without restrictions they can do up to 100 kph.

By capping to 25km/h they can likely stay within the regulations for small mopeds (not even requiring a proper driver licence and having relaxed requirements for the vehicle). If they go to 45km/h they would be treated as a regular scooter that requires a regular drivers licence (or a smaller one for slow vehicles). If they go 100km/h they would be treated as a motorcycle, requiring a special driver licence for motorcycles, and having to comply to safety requirements for motorcycles etc.

I don't think we will see them going over 45 km/h in Europe

Yes, of course, I understand that. I already have a Honda scooter that does 100 kph but the Gogoro is superior in so many ways...

A Gogoro as a 25kph max vehicle is a way overpriced and overengineered product (with the price reflecting that).

As far as i understand Gogoro need to roll out their battery swap network/infra before they will sell the actual scooters as this is what their business model revolves around.

They released a battery charger that can be used at home last year, I suspected it was in preparation for western markets but maybe not...

Well you need to pass your countries bike licence then.

So how do I buy a share? Do I need to be a large investor or can I do it through robinhood?

When they list on the NASDAQ you should see them under the ticker "NIU" in RobinHood. The filing says they want to IPO ASAP, but I don't know how soon that is.

Why so much hype over electric scooters? Western people did no adopt gas scooters. Electric scooters are not that different and if anything slightly inferior.

>Why so much hype over electric scooters? Western people did no adopt gas scooters.

Who are these "Western people" you refer to? Here in my part of Western Europe (and many others) gas scooters are everywhere and have been for decades...

Not to mention there are places with much more bicycles than the US (even despite the weather, like in the Netherlands).

In Zurich they aren't rare but clearly less common than bikes or motorcycles, and way less than cars.

In the US, motorcycles are quite rare in cities and highways as well. They seem to have the same nominal rates of ownership to Europe or close, but use them much less.

In Europe electric bicycles limited to 25km/h. Electric scooters going 45km/h are a good alternative with similar versatility. Both bicycles and scooters are much more space efficient than cars and great for moving quickly inside a city (European cities are much denser than America's Suburbia). So it's useful for the user of the scooter because they can move faster, and better for everyone else because you can fit more of them on a street than the same people in cars.

I'm not sure how electric scooters are inferior, the solve a lot of pain points of gas scooters. They can have much better acceleration and start much more reliably. Range isn't a big issue because you wouldn't want to take a trip longer than an hour or so with a scooter anyways.

Western people ain't Americans only. European prospects for electric scooters adoption are not that bad.

We just got a city-wide deployment of easily rentable scooters here in Vienna. They're immensely popular!

And the user experience is great .. open the app, find a scooter, walk to it (Viennese people walk.), rent it with the App, hop on and ride away .. park it where you want, finish the rental, voila .. easy, fun, smart access to an efficient transportation system.

People want these services. Its happening.

Have you ever tried one? They are amazing in so many ways. Silent, compact and environmentally friendly.

They are everywhere here in Malta and it is reducing traffic congestion very noticeably.

Weight is also a factor. You can fold and carry a electric scooter into your office and store it next to your desk. You can't do that with a gas scooter, the lightest ones are about 220 lbs.

You’re thinking of stand-up kick scooters - these are sit-down, electric versions of gas powered road scooters. Not foldable or light.

And (For most of the time) easier to park compare to a car.

Since a scooter is like two feet by four feet and a car is like eight feet by fourteen feet, scooters are going to be far easier to park than cars: like three to five can fit in a conventional parking spot, compared to one car. Given the smaller amount of space needed between vehicles, the numbers might be even more favorable.

Just don't use the side stand :-(

At this point, it’s clear that these Chinese companies are making a mad dash to get as much money as they can before investors finally catch onto them.

I honestly fear for China’s markets if only because of the instability that will come along with it.

I think Chinese companies are making a mad dash to grab as much market share as transportation switches rapidly away from petroleum.

Scooters are kinda interesting in that an electric scooter appears to be more of an 'appliance' than gasoline scooters which seem more of a 'lifestyle'

I would agree with that notion. I drive a Niu; it's very much fun to drive and I enjoy it, but I have a rather utalitarian view of it. Meanwhile, my girlfriend tried and liked it, but ultimately settled on a Vespa and loves it dearly.

It's probably a matter of time. I would be surprised if this were not to change as soon as a generation or two grew up having on of these in their teens.

I have seen reviews and Vespas always get preferred as build and ride quality is so much better plus ABS and Traction control.

No doubt about it, the Vespa wins hands down when it comes to build quality and resale value. The build quality comes at a significant cost in weight, though.

Ride quality - both have their strengths. In the end I'd still choose the Niu for its agility, directness and, most importantly, silence.

ABS would be a real boon, but her LX50 doesn't have that either. Definitely something I'd like to see on my next one.

Vespa will only release the first electric scooter in October next year though? how can they be so late to the market with their "Elettrica"?

Er you haven't heard of mods and the "northern" soul scene in the UK.

I have a former MD I used to work with who has some lovely restored classic scooters and I think he enjoyed them more than say his lexus.

I certainly have, my sister and brother in law were also Portland Scooter rats. Lot of my friends are also motorcycle rats. Thing about scooters and motorcycles is the maintence is heavy. One of the two reasons I've stayed away from them. (The other is an intense dislike for noise)

Electric Scooters seem like they should be quiet and just work.

Man is downvoted unjustly. The point is quite legit.

>Chinese companies are making a mad dash to get as much money as they can before investors finally catch onto them.

Well, better to say that Chinese companies were and are making mad dashes to get their MONEY OUT of China with some very inventive ways for decades.

Just before those were gold bars smuggled in the underwear, now those are things like financial instruments IPOs and such.

In a another news today, there was a note about Chinese company called Bytedance claiming bizarre valuation for its NASDAQ IPO, and the whole thread had not a single mention of rather substantiated and spoken about in China notion that Bytedance is another pump and dump scheme riding the ongoing O2O frenzy, and that their ownership structure suggest that the few other crazy rich Chinese people on board simply looking for a way to get their money out of China through that IPO.

Whats the evidence for this being a pump and dump or boiler room operation? They are legitimate companies in China and Asia that have a huge userbase. I would doubt other companies but a simple search on Youtube for TikTok shows that an average video has millions of views. They could be just IPOing like other tech companies and raising capital through an IPO.

Can you expand on the actual mechanism of how going public in the US helps one funnel money out of China?

The way I understand it, going public gives you liquidity, but I don't fully understand how this is a method of getting money out in a subversive way.

That is a very simple variation of pump and dump scheme. Basically, the same old pump and dump, but the "pump" and "dump" are split, and are done in different countries:

1. A rich guy in China goes and makes a back room deal with a new wiz kid on the block with a promise to prop up his hot startup, thus initiating a "pump" part in a pump and dump. Usually the capital is injected through legal shells and one day funds to obscure the origin.

2. PR companies are hired to hype up the co as the next big thing since sliced bread

3. More back room deals are made with institutional players, to have them add more seemed legitimacy to the operation: investment funds, big name underwriters, 3rd tier American VCs, all kinds of other big name boys.

4. Then, a complex shell structure - VIE is built around the company in an offshore heaven country. That is to give the co. a material constitution outside of China's legal reach.

5. The co. goes for IPO in USA

6. The original Chinese rich guy dumps his stock of a VIE in USA, cash gets sent to his US account, completing the "dump" part of the scheme. Whatever happens next with the company, does no longer matter.

I don't have any experience with passing the SEC's muster for going public, but if this was a scam, attracting the SEC's scrutiny would not be in their interest, because it may trigger the interest of other agencies (FBI/CIA?)

Are there examples of when the SEC cleared a company to go public, that was really in hindsight an elaborate money laundering and/or pump-and-dump sham? Because it seems to me like that would be exactly why the SEC exists: to protect the avg non-sophisticated non-professional retail investor from such things.

I guess it's hard to tease apart a pure pump and dump from a money laundering operation from one another.

Am by no means an expert, but I believe it's something like:

Invest in company in china -> company builds in valuation (pump) -> company IPO in america -> sell ownership share in america for american dollars (dump)

I imagine there are rules to prevent this, but I also imagine that there are loopholes...

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