Bizarre Particles Keep Flying Out of Antarctica's Ice
livescience.com
livescience.com
If so, is it only out of Antarctica? Would that mean they are coming from a specific direction in space?
Why can't we observe them simply as they come out of space? Is there something about the process of moving through the earth that makes them more detectable?
These may be stupid questions, feel free to vote this down..
Edit: if I understand correctly it seems like it's happenstance and ANITA just happened to be above Antarctica when the cosmic rays shot up through it on those particular occasions, I think
ANITA is listening for Askaryan radiation created by neutrino's traveling through ice (from the wiki, I know as much as you). And IceCube is looking for flashes of light created when a neutrino interacts with ice.
ANITA is a radio telescope attached to a balloon looking for broaband impulsive radio emission in Antarctica.
The main purpose is to look for the Askaryan emission from neutrinos interacting in the ice. The Askaryan emission is just the coherent version of the same process (Cerenkov radiation) that produces the flashes of light in IceCube (basically at long wavelengths you can't resolve the charges in a cascade and see a fast moving current density-- there's a negative charge excess because positrons can annihilate with atomic electrons). To detect this Askaryan emission, you need a dense dielectric material (if not dense, no target mass, if not dielectric, then RF won't propagate). Antarctica happens to be both the place you do long duration ballooning (due to all-day sunlight and favorable wind patterns that keep you over land) and the place with the most ice.
However, the events discussed here were produced by another channel. ANITA can also see RF emission from cosmic-ray extensive air showers (EAS). The RF emission here mostly comes from the splitting of charges in the showers by the Earth's magnetic field. Because in Antarctica, the magnetic field is approximately vertical, this produces horizontally polarized emission. Because ANITA is so high up (~40 km), EAS development from cosmic rays occurs below the payload, so the most common way for us to observe EAS's from cosmic rays is for the emission to bounce off the ice (because it's very forward-beamed). We can also see atmosphere-skimming showers that miss the ice entirely. As expected, the events that bounce off the ice have a polarity flip compared to the events that miss the ice.
The strange events discussed here look like EAS's from air showers, but the RF emission clearly points at the ice and there is no polarity flip from reflection, so the events look like very-energetic upward going air showers. There's no good way to explain upward going air showers in the Standard Model at these energies and observed angle (at lower energies or more grazing angles, tau neutrinos make it through the earth, which can decay to make upward-going air showers). So either there is something wrong with the measurement (we can't think of anything, but we're trying!), we got really unlucky with anthropogenic backgrounds (we think this is very unlikely), or there might be some new physics.
For this detection channel, there isn't too much special about Antarctica, just that we're on a balloon looking down so we can see stuff coming from below. The ice could potentially offer a slight enhancement compared to rock, but that's probably not so important. Other observatories looking for upward going showers from tau neutrinos (Pierre Auger) only look at very grazing incidence. There are proposals using fluorescence instead of radio emission (e.g. JEM-EUSO, and the SPB-EUSO balloon mission) that could do more or less the same thing.
Also a bit gobsmacked you can get Cerenkov radiation in air. On reflection I shouldn't be.
What about for the Askaryan channel?
That's the only place there are detectors.
The particles can't be reflected like that. We do see reflected radio emission from (presumably) cosmic ray air showers, but the polarity of the signal undergoes a sign flip on reflection. These signals are peculiar because they are definitely coming from the ice but don't have the sign flip one would expect for a reflection.
Nonetheless, we are working on simulating reflections off various ice models to see if we can come up with a plausible optics explanation (like pathological sastrugi).
I think someone just named the next big Ice band.
edit: Folks who work in Antarctica often refer to it as "The Ice".
Then there is the aspect that due to the size and the stated interaction with other matter that they are deflected from their original trajectory and could very well appear to be arising from directly below, giving the appearance of passing right thru the planet when they are not.
So very much possibly explained with what we already know about said particles.
The two relevant events had RF emission from 27 and 35 degrees below the horizontal. If interpreted as emission from upward-going EAS, then the particle would be within a degree or so of that. So they don't go all the way through the Earth, but through a chord long enough that, if our shower energy estimate (which, admittedly, is fraught with peril, we have an order of magnitude errors on that), no standard model particle could have made it through (yes, at high energies, the Earth is opaque to neutrinos).
Stopped reading there. I hate that a lot of pop-science articles suggest that the foundations of natural sciences are so shaky that a new finding can turn them upside-down. I've lived together with 50-60 social scientists in a small community during my student years, and I found that they don't have the slightest idea about how thoroughly e.g. special and general relativity have been tested in controlled experiments and every day when they use gps in their smartphones. For them these theories may be true, but who knows? I find it really sad that media that are supposed to bring sciences closer to non-scientists fail this way.
EDIT: added last sentence
I also dislike the pseudo pop-science, but the visceral close mindedness is just another side of that coin imo.
Further reading from Dr Asimov: https://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.ht...
> living in a mental world of absolute rights and wrongs, may be imagining that because all theories are wrong, the earth may be thought spherical now, but cubical next century, and a hollow icosahedron the next, and a doughnut shape the one after.
> What actually happens is that once scientists get hold of a good concept they gradually refine and extend it with greater and greater subtlety as their instruments of measurement improve. Theories are not so much wrong as incomplete.
> Even when a new theory seems to represent a revolution, it usually arises out of small refinements. If something more than a small refinement were needed, then the old theory would never have endured.
Ah. You're thinking of engineering, not theoretical physics.
They might become wrong; we assume that the laws of physics are fixed and immutable, that they have operated unchanged for all time so far and will continue to operate unchanged for the rest of time. Some physics acknowledges that that they may change at the edges of time, but it may also be the case that they are subject to sudden radical shifts.
We have cases where the laws of physics break for example singularties and it’s generally accepted that at certain energy levels forces can join or split for example during and shortly after the Big Bang the it’s assumed that all of the forces were joined together.
There is also the Higgs field which is not clear if it can change states or not and if it has done so at any period in the past which is not directly observable.
In fact the laws of physics “changing” is one of the possible answers to how the matter anti matter symmetry broke in the first place and allowed the universe as we know it to form.
However ofc any global change in any of the “fundamental” laws/constants will end all existence as we know it.
Heliocentrism isn't a "refinement" of geocentrism. It's a completely new way of understanding the universe. The fact that you can make geocentrism work if you make your epicycles complicated enough doesn't change the fact that it's conceptually incorrect, and not a useful way to think about the solar system.
Likewise GR isn't a "refinement" of Newton. It drives a tank through the middle of the Newtonian world view and burns it to the ground. Then it says "New physics, this way" and off it goes, thinking about phenomena that are literally inconceivable in a Newtonian universe.
You can consider GR a more accurate refinement for certain problems only. There's a limited set of problems - large in everyday human terms, but extremely limited in cosmological terms - where Newton gives you all the accuracy you want.
But if your understanding stops there, you're missing the point of these revolutions. They're not about improved accuracy, they're about new world views that give access to entirely new problem classes.
You literally cannot imagine these problems if you consider Newton as a mostly correct foundation and GR as a kind of philosophical epicycle added to it later.
And that means you cannot do useful new physics.
He's making the point of how the existing understanding can't give wildly wrong answers which are ready to be "upended", or else it would not have persisted. The understanding can be upended, sure. But the new theory has to account for everything existing.
Newtonian gravity works perfectly well in weak fields so it is not "wrong" but rather it's just not a generalised theory. A good way to look at it is that the laws govern the flow rate in a pipe are not a good generalisation of the behaviour of fluids in motion but they are as sure as hell good for calculating how liquid will flow in a pipe.
And wile GR tied everything together the signs that Newtonian laws were not a generalised theory predate Einstein in fact the Lorenz Transformation which serves as the basis for GR pretty much proved that as if the speed of light must taken as a constant and be finite which as defined by Newtonian physics then we get variable length and time.
So no GR to Newton isn't the same as Heliocentrism to Geocentrism if anything is that Geocentrism didn't actually work even with the math and observation we had.
The Greeks understood the Helicentric model quite well and even considered stars as distant suns the only problems with their models were primarily due to measurement errors for example Aristarchus's measurements were wrong by a few degrees but that was enough to alter the distance and size ratio of the moon and the sun to being about 20 times which what the greek calculated from being about 400 times which is what we've eventually measured correctly when we had better tools.
After all you can make the geocentric model infinitely precise with enough epicycles, it can match all and every earthbound observation to any degree of precision.
That does not change the fact that it is fundamentally wrong.
Sounds like how people were talking around the turn of the last century. Then came special and general relativity and quantum physics in about 20 years' time. Not to mention similar revolutions in math.
Dark matter, Dark energy, The cosmological constant problem [1], Quantum entanglement, Quantum gravity...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_constant_problem
The foundations are shaky. Of course it's an easy rhetoric tool to use by journalists, but often they are not wrong, if those claims turn out to be true.
It's amazing that all this math can describe the world we live in and help build us all the modern gadgets we see:
https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-s...
But on the other hand it looks like spaghetti code written in APL and needs some refactoring :)
We thought that the LHC would quickly find physics beyond the standard model but alas it has found nothing which is a problem for many theories that want to replace or even substantially expand on it as many of their prediction were proven to be false.
At this point i would find it very unlikely that we will replace the standard model completely most likely scenario is that we will find an extension to it which will be proven correct and at this point it seems the model we have will not be extended as much as it was thought so previously.
It would require an extremely drastic discovery to essentially push the standard model out of it's current generalised state.
And the cosmological constant is not a gaping hole in any theory it's a problem for some its not a huge or (even a small) problem in the standard model if you want to find the biggest true problem with it currently you should look into neutrinos which are supposed to be massless according to the standard model but have a small non-zero mass in reality.
There are a few solutions to this problem both within the current model as well as extensions which range from a massless sterile neutrino to super symmetry and to a secondary mechanism through which particles may gain mass other than the Higgs field.
To get an idea of what happens to old physics when new physics is discovered, realize that Newton's laws are still correct, and can be derived from QM. That's what you get when you do a good job of actually checking the truth with experiments. All theories have implicit tolerances embedded within the known precision of the experiments used to confirm them, and with these tolerances you can say "Newton's laws are right" without denying other, finer details. Similarly, scientists 1000 years from now will agree with everything we presently know about the Standard Model, because all of our beliefs are tempered by how closely we know our experiments are looking.
>Quantum entanglement
I should add that entanglement isn't "shaky" at all, it was predicted from the start and has been observed in countless experiments to date.
On one hand, on some scales, Newtonian mechanics is correct "enough" to give results that work, and so in that sense it is just incomplete in that its domain is restricted. On the other, relativity and QM change everything. These new theories may reduce to Newtonian mechanics given certain assumptions, but Newtonian physics assumes things about the structure of spacetime that are fundamentally incorrect (e.g. velocity is not additive). In this sense, one can fairly say that Newton's mechanics are not just incomplete or missing some fine details, but wrong.
I think there is more to the foundations than just the best numbers we can come up with for a given experiment. Our numbers for the gravitational constant, for example, are pretty similar (if more precise) to the numbers in 1891, but the setting in which that number is completely changed. There is no aether, no absolute space, velocities don't add (even though it's "mostly" right on most scales we experience and measure, it is false), space and time get mixed up, etc. Those were all pretty foundational ideas just over a hundred years ago.
There are two categories of things in that list: statements that had implications beyond what they had confirmed (the medium of light, the absoluteness of space) and an approximation (the addition of velocities.) Unsurprisingly the metaphysical interpretation of physics has not stood up to refinements in physics. The physics, however, remains true to within the bounds they knew. Likewise, the interpretation of physics is likely to change quite a bit over the next 1000 years, even 100. That's why you should never put too much stock in pop-sci articles that try to tell you that the universe is made of this-or-that. Fortunately on the philosophical side we now all realize that the interpretations are just humanizations of the knowledge itself, and are not knowledge themselves.
> and it could break physics as we know it.
It's just a case of provocative phrasing to hook the reader.The rest of the article is interesting, does NOT make out-sized claims and even references source material in arxiv for those who are interested.
You're expecting too much from a popular science article!
Albert Einstein himself said this about Entropy:
A theory is the more impressive the greater the simplicity of its premises, the more different kinds of things it relates, and the more extended its area of applicability. Therefore the deep impression that classical thermodynamics made upon me. It is the only physical theory of universal content which I am convinced will never be overthrown, within the framework of applicability of its basic concepts.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thermodynamics#Second_Law_of_T...
They know that 99,999/100,000 times something strange is observed, it turns out to be no big deal.
The day something breaks the Standard Model, physicists will cheer and begin a beautiful renaissance... and another... and another.
But can intelligent creatures in a simulation ever understand the scope and rules on which their simulation is based? Or can they only get closer and closer to the substrate, with a hard limit on ever modeling the details?
Another way to think about it is that if we are part of a set of fundamental rules that make up a simulation, it's impossible for us to prove everything about that system.
If the creatures within a simulation can make contact with the creatures (or physics) outside it, then perhaps they can look in from the outside, to get all the information necessary for any proof?
We can (and do) test General Relativity to exquisite precision in the solar system.
Those tests constrain the local density of any sort of effectively undetectable matter which includes among other things the (thermal) cosmic neutrino background, lots and lots of relativistic neutrinos, and a fair amount of ultrarelativistic neutrinos (like those that ANITA studies).
Effective undetectability is a function of current technology versus the goodness of estimate of (high) flux of the particles; we can spot small numbers of GZK-interaction neutrinos (with various observatories, including ANITA), we can spot small numbers of Super-KK neutrinos (mostly because we know the path they follow), we can spot small numbers of solar neutrinos (there are A LOT of them and we also know what direction they're coming from), but we have no real hope right now of spotting relic neutrinos (since as we take the momentum to zero, we lose the ability to spot recoil interactions; the emitted photons get drowned out by the CMB; the cosmic neutrinos are also travelling in random directions, like the cosmic photons).
If we take the local density of any of these neutrinos way up, their gravitational effects in the solar system (and indeed in similar systems we can study with various different telescopes) will be pronounced, and straightforward to study with General Relativity.
We do see pronounced gravitational effects at the scale of galaxies; one way to explain them is to add a thin dust of slow-moving mass where the dust motes remain on extremely stable orbits (implying no heating from (photon) radiation, no cooling by emitting (dark? photon? whatever) radiation, and no collisions with ordinary matter dust).
Dark matter is extremely sparse at the scale of star systems -- but then star systems are extremely sparse at the scale of large galaxies! (Likewise, the interstellar medium is extremely sparse, but there's a lot of space among the stars!) Low-interaction is easy enough; Earth is highly opaque to ultrarelativistic neutrinos, but as you take the momentum of the neutrinos down, Earth becomes highly transparent to them (so do telescopes and other instruments, alas, which is why they are hard to observe). (Standard-model) neutrinos are too light to stay in the places where the gravitational effects are observed -- gravitational interactions with the ordinary mass of the galaxy would kick them away. So something else is needed. The question is what, microscopically, it is. However, wishing the gravitational effects away doesn't work, and neither does modifying General Relativity (at least not so far).
In the standard cosmology, Dark Energy is precisely a component of the Einstein Field Equations of General Relativity (it's literally \Lambda, the cosmological constant). So it is entirely the opposite of being in conflict with General Relativity. The research question is mainly why it takes on the value it does, and whether it does so in any sort of spacetime-position-dependent way.
So it's not entirely the journalist's fault if they don't have the credentials to simplify things adequately without distorting something.
one can dream...
Romano Scarpa fans should know what I'm talking about.