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Comment by laumars | Hacker News Reader

In an ideal world, yes. But people have mortgages, families and other commitments. Some have social anxiety and find job hunting an impossibly scary prospect. Others might suffer from depression.

It's all good and well placing generalised ethics on individuals to do the right thing but in those kind of ideal world scenarios you also wouldn't have accountants finding tax loopholes, lawyers perpetuating patent abuse, nor company directors asking their staff to do morally objectionable things to begin with.

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In general I agree with you, clearly not everybody has the luxury of being able to quit their jobs if it doesn't align with their values, especially when the problem is so relatively benign in the grand scheme of things. I'm not trying to downplay Google's decision here, I invite everybody to stop using Chrome, but it's not like they're enslaving people or something. I can imagine that most people wouldn't risk hurting their families or losing their houses for something like that.

That being said, is it really a concern for the average Google engineer? I mean sure, if we're talking about Google's cleaning staff I can imagine that leaving their jobs can be risky but software devs? Even assuming that they have multiple children and a huge mortgage, surely they can easily find other well paying job without much difficulty?

You won't have me believe that the majority of Google's engineers is financially unable to quit their job.

>Some have social anxiety and find job hunting an impossibly scary prospect.

I'm sure that can be a factor but does it really justify anything? As far as looking for a job is concerned we have it super easy. If you can't stand for your values because of "social anxiety" then maybe you don't value your values that much?

And I realize that I sound like I'm on a high horse right now and I am, but I'm talking out of experience. I've been in that situation in the past, doing a job that I found morally questionable but finding myself excuses. Don't make my mistake, it's not worth it. There's more to life than working full time tricking people into watching ads.

> If you can't stand for your values because of "social anxiety" then maybe you don't value your values that much?

I’m not going to downvote you, but if you don’t suffer from social anxiety, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. As someone who is affected by it, I can tell you it’s soul crushing when it prevents you from making a move out of a bad situation. It’s completely paralyzing.

I mean yeah, if you have a medical condition obviously it's different but that's not really what I was getting at. I'm sure a few Googlers have genuine reasons for being stuck in their jobs and maybe that's one of them but I'm sure it's not the case for most of them.

My overall point is basically: if Google engineers can't justify quitting their jobs on moral grounds, then who can? We're utterly privileged compared to 99% of job sectors. If we are willing to give them a pass then we really can't complain about, say, people working for PRISM or military personnel in the drone programs, because I'm sure many of these people are in a much more precarious situation than your average Google engineer.

The thing I would add is that Google's whole thing about "bringing your whole self to work" and providing food and amenities to keep you at the office as long as possible leads to some unfortunate effects: Many Googlers social circles are heavily filled with other Googlers, and a Googler may rely on Google for a lot more than just the paycheck.

If someone's spending say 14+ hours a day on a Google campus, leaving can be a lot harder than just "finding a new job".

Even some of those publicly protesting Google's behavior or pushing for a union will turn around and help promote their friends' products or encourage people publicly to apply to join Google.

So I'd point out they've successfully made it as hard as possible, socially, to quit.

Sure, but let's be honest: this isn't true for everyone working for Google (or whatever Big Bad you want to talk about). Tons of developers don't give a toss about ethics and just prefer to stay with their unethical employer because the tech is cool and it's more convenient to not to have to look for another job (even if you have it so easy you actually take time out of your day to whine on social media about recruiters pestering you with job offers).

This already played out with the NSA after the Snowden leaks. The money is good, the tech is cool, so who cares if it's technically unethical as long as it's not illegal, nobody's going to hold you personally accountable and you still can easily find a job if things get too shady and you finally decide to leave.

Also, people can rationalise doing all kinds of evil things as long as they're allowed to safely live in a bubble ("Facebook is about connecting people, which is a good thing, so Facebook is a force for good and improves people's lives" is a recent one I heard from an FB employee).

That can certainly be the case, but it isn't really relevant in this case. Google have a infamous interview process, a very recognisable brand and essentially only hires in major location. Being able to walk across the street and get a new job is one major feature why people want to work for companies as Google and why they tolerate things like the interview process and high rents in the first place.

So by having a mortgage you justify unethical behavior? I fail to see how one creating their OWN problem justifies unethical behavior.

"Be the change you want to see in the world."

It is unreasonable to expect someone to deliberately harm themselves -- self-sacrifice is noble but not an obligation.

>people have mortgages, families and other commitments. Some have social anxiety and find job hunting an impossibly scary prospect. Others might suffer from depression.

So what? Standing up for what you believe in is never easy, and almost always involves challenges like those. Imagine if Dr. King gave up because he was anxious and depressed with death threats coming in on a regular basis.

Failing to take a moral/ethical stand because you're worried you might lose money or have to withstand some social anxiety blatantly shows that you don't really believe in those morals/ethics.

You don't have a right to subject your children to homelessness just because you felt like taking a stance based on feelings.

Does one have a right to give a crappy life example to one's children?

So, assuming you're tight on money, the job market is looking crap, but you got lucky and got a well paying job. Chances of getting another job are slim. You have a few responsibilities, a wife, say 2 kids, maybe even someone who needs medical bills paid.

Do you just say "fuck it", and quit, ignoring all your responsibilities? Over cookies?

Of course, when its not about cookies, but about something more drastic, say something ludicrous like giving google nuclear launch codes, then the whole thing looks different. Some things are worth the fight, some are not.

> Some things are worth the fight, some are not.

That argument goes both ways. If the Chrome team were unionized/organized in some form, and said "hell no" to the cookie change, then I doubt Google's management would shrug and replace the whole team with fresh H1B workers just to get this small change in.

I also find it fascinating that so many people bring up children as a reason to give up your ideals. My dad gave up a well-paying job for a more fulfilling one, and it would never occur to me to blame him for it; if anything it's inspiring. This was in Europe, with a reasonable safety net, but I don't think that Xooglers would hit rock bottom anyway.

This isn't just about cookies though. When Google designed HTTP/2 they kept cookies in favor of a separate authentication mechanism. Arguably because otherwise people would end up removing cookies altogether making themselves harder to track and with Google losing ad money in the process. Now Google have seemingly decided they want to have their cake and eat it too, just only for themselves. This isn't one incident but Google manifesting thier direction for themselves and the Internet. (Just recently they also disabled sign out from their YouTube app for instance). If you disagree with this direction that is certainly a good reason too quit sooner rather than later. Pretty much everyone I have ever talked to that ended up changing e.g. jobs because of a disagreement wish they did so earlier. It is very easy to sit in the same position and hope that things will get better and hard to see what else is out there even if it is very clear in hindsight.

>Do you just say "fuck it", and quit, ignoring all your responsibilities? Over cookies?

If you follow the news about Google at all, you'd know its obviously not just about cookies.

>Of course, when its not about cookies, but about something more drastic

It's about the the greatest surveillance apparatus in history encroaching towards total informational awareness.

for the individual developer getting asked to implement this, it is over cookies. The decision is "Do I implement this, or do I tell my kids I dont know how to feed them"

>for the individual developer getting asked to implement this, it is over cookies

No, cookies would be the straw that broke the camel's back. The context you're ignoring the the countless other straws beneath it.

>The decision is "Do I implement this, or do I tell my kids I dont know how to feed them"

False dichotomy

> Imagine if Dr. King gave up because he was anxious and depressed with death threats coming in on a regular basis.

I don't think anyone would blame him. I couldn't handle the pressure, how could I demand it of someone else?

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