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Comment by titzer | Hacker News Reader

After 5 years there, my conclusion was that the Bay Area runs on human souls. It might not be like the black lung, dirt-faced dangerous mines of old, but if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day, are caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance, and your mind is hijacked to the point where you literally cannot think about anything else and relax, then your soul is being pretty much sucked dry.

Get out if you can.

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Protip: Don't do that.

Don't work for a soul sucking company. Don't have a crappy boss. Don't refuse to have hobbies, don't refuse to have friends.

Moved to the bay area 16 years ago. Love it. Can't imagine going back to the northwest.

I've worked at a handful of tech companies and NEVER felt pressured to burn myself out.

Life is what you make of it. That's not to say there aren't crappy employers out there, and it's not so crap on the plight of those who feel stuck. Those employer should be held to account, I don't want to blame the victim.

But I've seen nothing about this area that makes it more likely to happen here than anywhere else.

> But I've seen nothing about this area that makes it more likely to happen here than anywhere else.

Everyone has different experiences, but this does not really jibe with the incentive structures of Tech companies. Heroic hackers with legendary exploits are not only lionized, but everyone is rewarded with "pay for performance" incentive structures, and of course, the elusive jackpot of startup glory.

In my experience it's absolutely part of the culture in Silicon Valley that top hackers burn themselves out like this.

Having a normal life seems to be counter to the prevailing mindset and the very real, very palpable monetary incentives.

I’ve been here only 8 years at this point but I find the Bay Area is what you make of it. If you want to work 12 hour days, go ahead and do that. If you want no friends or hobbies, that can be accommodated. If you want to spend $5k/mo in rent so you can live in the city, knock yourself out and do it, nobody is stopping you. But these are all optional, and avoidable.

>if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day,

when i walk the dog past the cool&hip startups in the downtown Palo Alto, i always wonder what happened - nobody is working in the evening in these nicely appointed open floor offices designed to foster creativity, collaboration and communication. Those 10-12 hours a day seems to be a myth these days.

>caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance

the Palo Alto, Mountain View, etc. downtowns (and what i gather the Mission and other cool places in SF) are bustling in the evening with young techies socializing and romancing when they are supposed to be crushing their soul in a soul crushing startup. One more SV myth ...

You can avoid many of these places if you let the recruiters, HR and interviewers know that your looking for a place with good work life balance. It is hard to find good companies to work for in the bay area, but there are a few that exist. Make sure you read the glassdoor reviews: don't pay attention to the star rating (those are completely messed up), but the truth tends to come out in the writings, especially the longer reviews. Read those very carefully. If the place is toxic, it often comes out.

not my experience. yup worked super hard but also partied pretty hard and made lots of lifelong friends. you do that when you have a shared experience.

anyway just saying, i found my first five years to be collegial. i would never ever do it again but i look back with fondness.

of course it only works if you are in an exciting startup or small company. i very very much doubt you are going to forge bonds if your first job is at FAANG and you did not attend shool here.

i cannot believe new grads would come here for the FAANG experience. that does indeed seem awful to me.

This comment kinda reveals just how little you know of how the rest of the country and the world looks at Silicon Valley. Google, MS etc. are seen as great jobs for many immigrants and (as I found in grad school in a rural area) small town kids. They compensate extremely well, which is enough of a carrot for many, many people, especially those from less economically privileged backgrounds.

> It might not be like the black lung, dirt-faced dangerous mines of old, but if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day, are caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance, and your mind is hijacked to the point where you literally cannot think about anything else and relax, then your soul is being pretty much sucked dry.

I would get my soul sucked dry for a few years for 100k$+ a year - for few years

100k$ won't create much savings in the Bay Area. At least aim for 200k$ there if you want to sell your life for years.

100k in most of European big cities are not going to send you to pension at 40 either, 200k is the 6figures salary of the 90s

True, in Europe high taxes take an additional toll, also the salary situation is so that it's basically impossible to get 200k in Europe if you're an employee.

One thing to consider is that if you spend several years with zero friends, zero romance and doing only single thing, then it is hard to start socializing again (assuming work is work and not socializing moved to workplace). You forget what it is like, how to do it, how to choose people to be with. You wont know what to do with time.

At the same time, it's better to be rich and miserable than poor and miserable. It is easy to have zero friends, zero romance and zero meaningful hobbies under almost any circumstances for the kind of people that end up getting jobs in SV anyway.

The dichotomy here is not between dirt poor and apple CEO.

Also, most young people who end up in SV are normally adjusted fully able to have friends and romance. They are also able to enjoy movies, read books, etc etc etc the same way as other people.

Where, in the entire US, does tech not pay $100k? startups pay more than that here. You don’t need to come to SV to make $100k. Any city will do.

Are you talking entry, low, mid, or high level compensation? Anecdotally, in the Midwest entry level is well below $100k. If you want to make $100k here, you have to be at least mid level and be at a company that values developers. According to "Developer Salaries in 2018: Updating the Stack Overflow Salary Calculator" [1], the median pay is roughly 100k in the prominent Midwest cities.

[1]: https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/09/05/developer-salaries-in-...

Thanks for the link. I guess I overestimated starting salaries nationwide by quite a bit! But in my defense, I really meant total comp, not just salary.

I know of 2 SF startups that pay $120k ish for entry level. At entry level, forget about equity, the amount you will get will be worthless. The base is your entire package.

Google will give you a total comp (salary, bonus, RSU) of about $150-$160k for entry level. No senior+ person I know there is making less than $250k total comp. Google designs salaries very well to keep everyone in the same level centered at the same total comp. If you take a high salary, your raises and RSU refreshers will be less, regardless of your performance. Personally I think that's very unfair but hey I don't work at Google so who am I to say.

I was making $125k base (maybe $150k total) as entry level at a mid-peninsula bigco back in 2000. I never dipped under $100k going to smallco and startups since then. As you can imagine, I make a fortune these days but I am very highly specialized.

If indeed startups are paying less than $100k here, I can't imagine how they hire anyone, certainly not anyone good.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. But it's not bad for everyone: I really enjoy it here and, honestly, my biggest fear is having to leave someday due to costs, because my quality of life is so high and because I have a lot of friends here.

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