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Comment by bayesian_horse | Hacker News Reader

Behavior problems in dogs are all about training. Behavior problems in cats are mostly about environment, and virtually never about training.

A cat really is a mirror of its environment. Most problems arise from pent up energy, group dynamics, clueless Humans, bad toilet placement (yes cat toilet makes the cat happy, as a German saying goes).

Lots of space, hunting activity, ability to choose contact at will and a well structured habitat makes such cats a lot more well regulated.

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As someone who has dedicated years of behavior modification training a rescue dog with genetic fear aggression (actual clinical diagnosis), I wish we'd get away from the "there's no bad dog, only bad dog owners" dogma. I'd agree with you that the majority of behavioral problems with dogs can be removed or mitigated with training. However, dogs as with all other species have their temperament spread a long a distribution - and the outliers rarely survive their first 2 years, and those how find the right owners who can provide the right training and management still will never live a normal household dog life.

The spirit behind the phrase "no bad dogs, just bad dog owners" fits very well with your example.

Your dog is not bad, and its owner (you) are also not bad.

Now, if you took your dog, who you know to have behavior issues to a home and locked him in with some kids...then you are now the bad owner.

You are smart and caring enough (thank you!!) to recognize and properly handle your dog.

Your dog is not bad, he is just a dog.

Okay, replace bad with inherently badly behaved then.

The worst thing is that many people are fucking awful to other people who return a dog to a shelter when it doesn't work out.

Are they? I’ve not heard of that stigma, but I can believe it. Might just be where I’ve talked most about dogs though.

People working at shelters can be rather obnoxious. They are willing to sacrifice a lot for improving an animals welfare, and can't understand if someone isn't willing to upend their lives for a totally miserable relationship to a new pet.

Rescueing animals should not be about making people miserable.

I call BS on that "diagnosis" (and I'm a Veterinarian btw). That being said, there is such a thing as a dog whose behavioral problems are insurmountable. I just don't want to ascribe it to genetics or anything else specific in any individual dog.

If training doesn't seem to work, the only option is medication. Especially if fear is supposed to be a factor. I don't know what you tried and I don't want to judge because I believe every owner loves their animals, no matter what.

>> I believe every owner loves their animals, no matter what.

I have run into a couple situations where this was not the case. We had an incident in Vancouver with a dogsled company (Whistler, post-olympics). Dogs owned for commercial purposes are often not "loved". Similarly, fighting dogs. There are many people in this world for whom dogs are not pets but a source of revenue, status, or fashion.

Even those people tend to love their animals more often than not. I've seen farmers being affectionate to their cows or their pigs. I knew a poultry professor who kills chicken all the time but seems to cuddle them when people aren't looking.

My presumption has proven relatively useful in dealing with owners. Even loving an animal doesn't preclude abuse, though.

I agree that knowing the accuracy of the diagnosis is hard - it was established by the Behavior Service at the Veterinary Hospital of UC Davis by small animal behavior specialists. Our dog is on medication now (SSRI), and I would say the primary help is not a direct effect on behavior, but improved results of the behavior modification (presumably due to lower stress levels). In the end, we're fighting behavior that does not seem rooted in any specific experience or medical condition, so genetics does not seem far fetched. Please feel free to chime in if you have ideas.

A dog's parents, grandparents, and all ancestors for the last n hundred years may have been selected for their ability to grab something and shake it until it's neck breaks.

This isn't the fault of the dog, but also not always fixable by training.

My point is that behavior problems in dogs are addressed through training (successfully), and problems with cats are most successfully addressed through modification of the environment. Both can benefit from medication, and cats do respond to training.

"My cat from hell" is an eye opener in that regard.

> yes cat toilet makes the cat happy, as a German saying goes

wat?

What's the saying in German, and does it have an idiomatic meaning?

I never heard it as a saying, I know it as song of comedian(Helge Schneider),i don't know if he is the origin of this phrase or if he derived it from a saying

I was referring to "Katzenklo macht die Katze froh". I admit the joke was terrible.

I wonder if you mean this:

https://translate.google.com/translate?u=https%3A%2F%2Fde.wi...

It is not all together surprising to me that the original article is only there in German ;-)

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