iOS 12 released | Hacker News Reader

iOS 12 released

apple.com

457 pointssahin364 comments

“Apple believes privacy is a fundamental human right, which is why iOS has always been designed with built-in encryption, on-device intelligence, and other tools that let you share what you want on your terms.”

It isn’t often that you see any company the size of Apple take that strong of a stance. Privacy is their best feature and it seems like they are doubling down.

Though I believe Apple bowed to China to give them access to Chinese citizen's iCloud data. But you can operate an iPhone without iCloud fairly easily, which is definitely nice. Doing more on-device helps them here.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/18/17587304/apple-icloud-chi...

Can’t you just select US sad your country when setting up the iCloud account and use a VPN? Or are Chinese devices different at the hardware level and only allow connecting to the Chinese (compromised) iCloud?

VPNs in China get blocked all the time.

Even private VPNs? I'm not that smart about networking but it seems like it would be difficult to distinguish an SSL/TLS connection to your DigitalOcean server because you're doing normal stuff and one where you're tunneling HTTPS through it.

Their deep packet inspection tech is very very good.

It's not hard to distinguish a VPN connection by behaviour pattern really. Some simple features to detect:

Both small packets and maxing out the window size in one stream. Lack of DNS queries from the host. Single connection dominating the bandwidth.

There's a reason for all of those of course, but put them together on a residential connection: almost certainly a VPN user.

And these are all really simple heuristics. In practice, we know you can identify which Netflix video are you watching just by the packet sizes/timing.

There was a post recently about how someone was able to set up his own vpn which bypassed it. Something about the server padding out its response with garbage data?

You are still piping all of your traffic through one server. This would not look like a regular usage pattern by any means.

You need a payment method with a billing address in the country.

I believe there are tricks you can use to bypass that (attempting to download a free app?).

Which is why I have been crying for an iOS Time Capsule.

I don't want to touch iTunes and do computer backup, that is like a very geeky way do it and most people in China don't even have Laptop or Desktop. If they can make Dual Sim and other features targeting the Chinese market; Apple's second biggest market, why cant they make Time Capsule specifically for China. ( Making it China only will likely piss off the Chinese Government. They could release it worldwide to avoid this.)

There is an iPhone Time Capsule... it's called iTunes and it has support full, encrypted device backups via home Wifi for years...

"I don't want to touch iTunes and do computer backup, that is like a very geeky way do it"

Oops :(

They have iCloud for that.

Right, and that’s back-doored by the Chinese government (in China). So neither fits gp’s desired featureset of local & frictionless.

Evidence of back door?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insigh...

The encryption keys for Chinese users are stored in China, and the government has full access to data and keys on those servers as per Chinese law. Maybe “backdoored” is the wrong word since they can walk in the front door.

Can't reply to the guy below you but there might be some truth to this. Companies running servers in China must give up the login keys to the government. iCloud in China is not operated by Apple themselves, but a Chinese partner vendor.

Exactly. It is not really a backdoor per se. And there isn't any law sitting in between your iCloud Data and government trying to collect it.

>full, encrypted device backups via home Wifi for years

I never knew that - this might be a much better option than iCloud backup

Have ou tried iMazing?

Isn't that iCloud? Or are you looking for an onsite backup?

My parents barely touch a computer and I haven’t backed up in ages.

I would immediately buy 3 if these.

> an iPhone without iCloud

Would it send less telemetry data to Apple?

No, but not turning on telemetry does.

You are asked every single OS update whether you want to enable telemetry or not.

And the default is no.

Also several of the iCloud services are E2E encrypted and designed to withstand adversarial clouds. They talked about it at Blackhat.[1]

Doesn't help things like mail or photos, of course, but it is extremely notable in the China context for one big reason: it does E2E encrypt messages. WhatsApp was banned from China when they implemented this. Apple stands out in this way... although they're probably getting away with it because most Chinese don't use Apple Messages.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLGFriOKz6U

Yeah but even if they use e2e, which btw was found to be flawed at the protocol design level by prof. Matthew Greene and his team, they also automatically back-up the messages to iCloud with no way to disable that without disabling the whole of icloud. It would sure be nice if they changed that.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "e2e was found to be flawed"? Is the paper available online?

Commenter probably meant this research[0].

[0] - https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2016/03/21/attack-o...

There is the option in Settings to disable storing Messages and Backups in iCloud.

...which does not affect the storing of Messages in device backups into iCloud.

This is categorically and demonstrably false. Backing up to iCloud is disabled by default, as is Messages in iCloud. Either can be enabled or disabled as desired with no ill effect on your device or the rest of iCloud usage.

iCloud backup is on by default.

No - setting up an iPhone from new doesn’t even require an iCloud account. If you set up iCloud it will enable backups, but even then you can disable them without disabling ‘all of icloud’ as GP claims.

The fact that iCloud is not required to activate does not change the fact that iCloud is on by default and iCloud backup is also on by default.

I suspect that there might be undiscovered software differences between iPhones sold in China and those sold in other markets. The Flag of the Republic of China (Taiwan) is not present on iPhones sold in China. It shows up as a box with a question mark in it.

If you're implying they secretly disabled iMessage encryption for the China locale: No Friggin Way. That would be discovered and publicized instantly.

Not to venture into conspiracy theory territory but the fact that they have the capability in software to modify the phone's behaviour based on which country the device was sold in is concerning enough to me. The Chinese gov. can put pressure on these large multinationals that rely on China's workforce and those companies can't do a great deal about it other than comply.

Without a public statement even saying they disagree with it, which seems to go against their pro-privacy principles and goes against what they've done in other government-based privacy disagreements they've had. I wish they'd make actions against their principles more transparent lest people think it's just lip service they are paying to the masses.

I have Apple and Android phones.

I have a specific google account for my Android phones specifically because you can’t do anything on an Android without logging in. iPhones still work as phones just without cloud storage.

Maybe I'm missing something here but what can't you do on Android without logging in (other than Google services of course)? You can download apps to do pretty much anything you want without even touching the Play Store, as far as I'm aware you need an iCloud account to download any apps on an iPhone.

Yea, not sure what he's talking about. You can choose not to sign into Google and use the web browser to install either fdroid or Aurora as the app store. Pretty sure you need to sign into iTunes to use the apple app store and cannot install any ipa?'s.

If I was in charge of Apple, I'd refresh the Mac Mini (it's embarrassing its sold with a 4th gen CPU). And slowly build private cloud capabilities.

It is a really interesting marketing move (and don't delude yourself, this is a marketing move). To market a feature that Google can't possibly compete with.

>and don't delude yourself, this is a marketing move

I don't think it's just a marketing move necessarily. While power and idealistic managers can have a significant short term impact in direction and culture, in the long term of course financial incentives are generally the single greatest determinator of company behavior. However short term isn't meaningless particularly wrt company cultural values that last longer, and in turn leadership can still matter a lot. I think that may multiply when leadership isn't fighting a company's incentives, but rather there is a chance to bring both together in some ways. All that is leading up to sometimes forgotten (and how great that is!) fact that Apple's current CEO Tim Cook is a gay man who grew up in a time when that was flat out illegal and could be heavily persecuted even in the US, and now lives in a world where it's still something subject to death in many parts of the world. That's not determinative by any means, but I can't imagine it hasn't influenced him at all. One of the core business values of having a more diverse workforce and management team is precisely that they bring a wider set of experiences and viewpoints which can profitably inform the company.

I've seen a number of comparisons vs Steve Jobs that have called Tim Cook more "visionless" and "mundane" and so on and so forth, a "competent manager" but without the same animation. I honestly wonder though whether privacy and personal information security is in fact a real animating motivation Tim Cook's. It's inherently a much quieter, subtler one that doesn't on the face of it have the same end user feature impact (by definition). And it is something that can work well with where Apple gets their money and even their own corporate culture of secrecy. But that doesn't mean he can't drive them even farther and harder in that direction in turn then they might have gone otherwise right?

Maybe you didn't intend it that way, but when I see "this is a marketing move" it tends to feel dismissive and negative, like it's all just fake and manipulative. But something can be "good PR" while also being a genuine value people hold, in fact if anything I think the most sustainable and best win/wins are when it all comes together, when something someone is doing genuinely for real is good and is worth serious value and in turn is totally reasonable to be proud of and "market". That's the ultimate ideal of the market right, that someone is making something good and gets rewarded in turn?

Apple has engineered iOS to offer much more privacy than Google for many years, but they have not highlighted it much in the past. Was that also just a marketing move?

> but they have not highlighted it much in the past

Sure they have. Every instance where they stonewalled an investigation was undoubtedly seen at least in part as a way to differentiate themselves from their main competition, which is an run by what is essentially an advertising company that functions by gathering user information.

If you can do something that differentiates you from your competition and they can't feasibly replicate it without changing a large part of how they function at a base level, you do so, even if it might take a while to (or never) pay off. The return on that gamble far outweighs the cost.

They haven't much highlighted privacy in keynotes, marketing material etc. in the past. For the longest time, it was tucked away in the iOS security white paper. Now they're ramping it up.

I am just arguing against GP's dismissal of Apple's stance on privacy as a marketing move. I believe it's truly close to their heart, and it's a happy coincidence that it's also increasingly a marketable asset (given the despicable data collection practices of the big tech/advertisement firms).

But neither me nor, presumably, GP has privileged inside information on Apple's true motives (and surely they're multifaceted and complex and not monolithic anyway). So, just asserting that it's purely a marketing move and then furthermore implying that a deviating assessment is delusional strikes me as unjustified.

> I believe it's truly close to their heart, and it's a happy coincidence that it's also increasingly a marketable asset

I think it's both, and impossible to separate. It's a public company, it doesn't have stuff close to it's heart, but it does have ideals it strives for that it presents to the board as the path forward. Part of that explanation is explaining how it helps the company.

> So, just asserting that it's purely a marketing move and then furthermore implying that a deviating assessment is delusional strikes me as unjustified.

But, if you read carefully, it wasn't asserted that it was purely a marketing move. Just that it was one (which we've sort of covered tangentially), and it was delusional to think that it wasn't (which we've also covered). There wasn't any statement that it also wasn't something they've incorporated into their company ideology.

That's one of the shortcomings of delayed text communication. What could have simply been a quick reply of "sure, it may not be the only reason, but it can't be discounted" from the original author gets blown out into a larger discussion where people are arguing slightly differently things based on their contextual interpretation of the statement.

Apple created iAd as a way to allow developers to monitize free apps while respecting the end user's privacy many years ago. Privacy is hardly something Apple discovered recently.

iAd stood out because it didn't share customer data with advertisers as was the standard in the industry.

>Apple has a lot of knowledge regarding its users,but what it doesn’t do with that data is share it with advertisers very freely. That makes Madison Avenue very mad.

>rather than offering a cookie-based ad-tracking and targeting mechanism, it essentially requires partners to tell it what kind of audience it needs to reach, and then trust that Apple will handle the rest, AdAge says. And it’s well worth noting that Apple prioritizes customer privacy here over a big potential upside in ad revenue.

>what it doesn’t do is hand over the keys to all that data and let advertisers plug into it directly with their own data-mining and targeting software. That’s not standard for the ad industry and that’s likely the reason a few Madison Avenue feathers are ruffled over their approach.

https://techcrunch.com/2014/02/18/advertisers-not-thrilled-w....

While their statement is a marketing position, Apple's fundamental focus has always been user = customer not user=product

Much like any other company that does not require user data to maintain business. It is easy for Apple to take this stance as they are a walled system.

Though it does not say that they guarantee the apps available on the platform are also as secure.

It is a marketing move with game theoretic implications for the user. If Facebook and Apple are both considering Shady Feature X, it’s much more financially risky for Apple, since it’s discovery would jeopardize billions of brand building. So Facebook is more likely than Apple to rationally choose to do it.

If this is a marketing move, then any feature could be described as a marketing move.

For example, how is Apple's emphasis on privacy, with the additional features they have added to push for it, different from their emphasis on backing up when they introduced Time Machine? I think that the Time Machine introduction was as much of a marketing move, at which point you've broadened the definition of the phrase where it doesn't really mean anything.

Yes, every feature is a marketing consideration. Marketing involves everything about how your potential and existing customers view your products, and privacy is a huge subject of interest.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with privacy being both a marketing move and aligned with our interests as users. In fact, I'm more comforted by the idea that morals and profits are aligned here, because no company is above choosing the latter when push comes to shove.

Indeed. Making a good product is a marketing move.

I find that people on HN frequently use the term "marketing" in the absolute broadest sense of "all activities involved in the process of creating a product that customers want to buy," but still use it pejoratively as in its narrowest sense of "advertising and other communication intended to convince customers to buy a product."

I don't think anyone's delusional about this - Apple genuinely cares about something that is also a market differentiator. It's a win/win scenario.

The best business strategies are ones that benefit users AND makes the business money. That's what Apple's done here.

Even though it isn't the case right now, we must be careful for the feature not to become a feeling of privacy rather than privacy itself

Of course. As with all claims and features, we must constantly be critical of them and the motivations behind them.

Yep, I feel safe with Apple right now. Who knows what tomorrow may bring.

Don't delude yourself that you're the only one to see that this is a marketing move. They're differentiating themselves from the rest, and clearly signaling to customers--what else would they possibly do?

What feature of a phone would not be a "marketing move"? What is that label meant to convey in terms of that feature's importance/viability/sincerity?

My guess is that Apple is positioning themselves for an inevitable future where privacy is taken a bit more seriously or at least legislated against. While this seems far fetched right now in the United States with the Google ad monopoly, I think it will eventually come after some form of catastrophic leak (from some user data harvesting conglomerate) involving politicians or other powerful figures.

Build the trust now, reap the rewards later. Glad they're doing it.

Many of Aaple’s privacy and encryption efforts have come in response to the US government’s demand for data. If they don’t have access to data or never stored it, the government can’t seize it. Note that the US government’s response to this is to demand encryption back doors.

Best case scenario for the future is that these demands will be made publicly so we’ll know it’s not secure.

Apple is positioning itself for a future where they can’t compete on physical features because all phones have all features. They can’t keep building bigger displays forever.

You have to remember Apple is a global company.

And there are journalists being locked up for allegedly compromising state secrets e.g. Myanmar, Cambodia. Dissidents being rounded up and jailed. You have Russia going after former spies and anyone criticising the government.

People are literally dying every day because of a true lack of privacy.

"I think it will eventually come after some form of catastrophic leak"

... you mean like a credit reporting agency leaking out ssn and other very important data information of millions. To be fair, as a dedicated apple hater, all these events, plus google's more recent lack of morality decision making, has made me rethink which computer, phone, maps, and search engine I will be using moving forward.

No, that event didn't hurt the rich and powerful, just the average Joe. Something more along the lines of search history leaking or being used for insider trading. Something of that nature.

Privacy is their best feature and it seems like they are doubling down.

Indeed. Between that and the imminent arrival of dual-SIM iPhones, I may actually want to buy something here.

And yet, for all the information Apple provide about security and privacy, including much talk of end-to-end encryption in some cases, I have so far been unable to determine the fundamental way that all of their online services work and whether they have access to (for example) any photos I take or messages I send from the phone, if I choose to use iCloud services. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Have you checked their iOS security guide? It has a section on internet/cloud services.

https://www.apple.com/business/site/docs/iOS_Security_Guide....

EDIT to add: DuckDuckGo gave me the above link for the iOS 11 version, but it has actually been updated already for iOS 12.

Yes, thanks. Actually, that's the main documentation I was looking at before. I can't figure out from those descriptions how Apple IDs and iCloud keys work, and in particular, whether Apple themselves hold all of the necessary credentials to decrypt data held in iCloud services or whether something remains with the user alone.

I’ve read the entire iOS security guide (seriously; version ~9/10), and while I don’t remember the specifics, I distinctly remember coming to the conclusion that I could not use most iCloud features as they did not provide the same privacy as on-devices features. I distinctly remember that your photos can be seen by Apple as that was the main thing I wanted to know.

Some things, like the keychain, are not accessible by Apple, and only on your enrolled devices.

That was my suspicion as well, but just on the basis that for certain features such as the keychain they do explicitly talk about how the encryption works and having no access at Apple, so maybe the exception proves the rule. However, I've also read in several places that Apple has been at least considering reworking iCloud so that it really does have no access, as a means of countering government prying eyes. It would be nice to get the current facts, whatever they are.

I'll have to download and check, but imagine if, this time over, they actually managed to make the "trust this computer" decision persistent so that you don't have to trust the same pc over and over again every time you plug a device to recharge.

The fact that each device has an IDFA that any app can share with literally anyone in the world, without the need to tell you, because IDFA is a quasi-persistent identifier I suppose doesn't matter.

First time I've heard of this. It is possible to turn it off though.

> note that when ad tracking is limited, the value of the advertising identifier is 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/adsupport/asidenti...

Here is how you turn it off:

1. Go to Settings > Privacy > Advertising.

2. Turn on Limit Ad Tracking.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202074

Some FUD here, both Android and iOS (and Windows Phone, when it was a thing) have these advertising identifiers.

Both platforms allow you to disable tracking and/or reset the identifier to something new.

However, if you disable tracking on Android, it just changes the value of another variable called (to the effect of) "Ad tracking enabled" and you are politely asked to not "target ads" towards that ID. It's important to note here, that nothing ever stops you, you're just asked to. You can still harvest data, you can still analyse and sell it, but you just can't advertise back to them.

In comparison, disabling Ad tracking on iOS gives you the zeroed out advertising ID (which is shared with everyone else who opts out, which means you blend into the crowd (which makes that data more difficult to usefully separate and analyse).

Pretty sure Apple doesn't let you bundle dozens of Advertising SDK's that harvest everything by default either.

I would like to believe them. But I can't. It would be so great if they could open source the part of their software that makes it possible to verify its degree of privacy.

A company just writing they're taking privacy seriously... I don't believe it.

why open source it? where else would/could it be used?

Now, I would like a third party to audit it. That would be great.

A third-party audit, like mentioned in a sibling comment, would be great. Many claims are verifiable, however, especially the claims that data remains on your device - just run it without internet, or sniff the traffic.

Sniffing the traffic does not help if the content that leaves your phone is encrytped by applications that are binaries.

Considering that Google is the exact opposite it may be a marketing strategy to lure clients to iPhone.

That's pretty clearly the reason, but helps us nonetheless.

I believe that this is just strategic marketing to position their products vs Google, not some deeply held belief. It's still valuable ofc.

Provided this position is 100% genuine (and by all accounts, there is no clear indication that it isn't), that it comes from Apple gives the pro-privacy stance a hell of a lot of clout. If a company like Apple is investing in privacy then the consumer must assume that privacy has a lot more value than the government insists, no?

For those who are security conscious it's a great reason to get an iPhone over an Android (or whatever variation). For those who aren't and who just like the iPhone because it's trendy and cool, they are getting privacy for free. There's a chance that this might set an expectation when choosing the next phone, as privacy pushes further into the public consciousness.

I would like to think there's a greater play, though, and that is humanity. Apple doesn't solve all its problems with tech/machine learning; they don't give you up to the mathematics. This makes some of their offering flawed when you compare it against what Google offers, but at the same time that's not such a bad thing. You won't get your entire digital life wiped out of existence, without recourse, because a calculation made an executive decision. If, as a developer, your app gets removed from the App Store or doesn't pass in the first place, it's because a human looked at it while also using a specialised toolkit. You get proper customer service, physical stores and authorised resellers...

They make as many poor choices as any other company but I appreciate their priorities and values.

I've asked this before on here and didn't get much of a response. If Apple truly believes in privacy, does this mean that they have a strict policy against using the data provided by companies that have a lower ethical stance on data collection? Is it more ethical to pay and benefit from the data for targeted advertising than it is to collect the data yourself?

Edit: On re-read I thought it might be unclear what I'm asking. Does Apple use Facebook and Google data for targeted advertising?

Your question is still unclear to me: are you asking if they advertise on platforms that collect and use data to match users with ads (Facebook and google), or if they buy data from firms to use in their own advertisements / marketing campaigns.

I don’t know the answer to either question, but I assume the answer to the first is yes of course they advertise on these platforms (on google at least), and the answer to the second is, I hope No.

I was mostly meaning the first example you provided. These platforms are so good (at least they claim to be) at matching users and ads because of their extensive data collection/sharing practices. Is it cool to say "We respect our users privacy" if they are benefiting directly from another companies less privacy respecting practices?

They have no choice. There is no technical way for Apple to monitor what data apps are sending out without doing something like MITM every connection which is a million times worse.

So they have to rely on a punishment model where they demand apps provide a privacy policy then kick them off the store if they fail to comply with it.

I think he was asking whether Apple itself buys ads on platforms like Facebook. e.g., ads for Apple prodcuts.

The implication being that by doing so, they would be benefiting from the aggressive data collection performed by those platforms.

Yet Apple makes money from apps that collect data, made by developers.

> Yet Apple makes money from apps that collect data, made by developers.

If an app is free, but makes its money through data collection, then no, Apple doesn't make money off of it.

If they charge for the app, and then do data collection, then yes, Apple makes money off of the initial app purchase, but not off of the data collection.

In terms of a business sense, Apple's move to make privacy a core feature is almost the last differentiator they can make between themselves and other mobile device operators. Android has "won" the mobile phone war in the sense of device count (it wasn't always the case, remember). The premiere Android devices, e.g., Pixel, Galaxy, and some others all tack on hardware features generally superior to Apple's – maybe not all in one, but the BEST of each feature generally belongs to an Android device maker, whether it's the screen, camera, fingerprint reader, or otherwise. Even with Apple's degrading performance to save battery life, they lost the performance crown explicitly (showing they did not prioritize that) and battery life can be beaten by thicker phones which Apple avoids.

So, all that's really left that they can compete with commercially and effectively against Google's Android hegemony is in the one thing neither Google nor their device partners can even deign to pursue – consumer privacy. Apple is, and likely always will be, a hardware company. So, they do not see consumer's private info as a source of revenue. They just need folks to keep buying their devices. They can differentiate by making privacy a feature, something a device beholden to Google or the Play marketplace can never be, which is the vast majority of Android devices out there.

The incident with Android and the battery saving problem a few days back must be telling. If Google changed that setting and affected a whole host of users' phones, then they also have the infrastructure in place to know which phones were affected.

No malice assumed, of course, but that means that your independence is no further than a config flag in a build process. As in, you don't have it.

Android phone CPUs are so far behind Apple's A12 it's not even worth debating.

Sounds like it is worth debating, please, provide the argument that demonstrates such a gap.

About the A10 chip is when Apple started pushing ahead of Snapdragon equivalents. Now with the A12 the difference is massive especially as it includes a lot of capabilities directly benefiting machine learning use cases. Which aren't included in any benchmark that I know of.

This is old but indicative: https://hothardware.com/ContentImages/NewsItem/45374/content...

FYI, the Huawei Kirin 980 is made with a 7nm process and has an onboard multicore neural processing unit for AI.

https://9to5mac.com/2018/06/01/a-series-chip-benchmarks/

I had used Android Nexus devices starting from Nexus S up to 6P and finally switched to iPhone 8 this year.

Android has better UX and has some nice features but there are no real privacy settings, Android apps have no proper inspection before being released on the market and too frequently some 0day RCE exploits are released publicly for Android.

Privacy features were the biggest reason I switched and even though it is not as convenient to use it, I'm going to stick with it for the foreseeable future.

Oh, and the hardware build quality "feel" seems much much better than any Android phone I have held as well.

> "Android has better UX..."

ruhr? </scooby-doo_voice>

i have both an android and an ios phone, and i'm comparatively amazed at how bone-headed android UX can be. it's also a hot bed of paralysis-of-choice (in both apps and in settings/configuration). sure, ios has issues here and there, but (to me) ios is generally more intuitive (==better UX).

Perhaps you have a Samsung? Some of the changes that vendors make are aggressively stupid, in the name of being different.

The only caveat I have on that is the iPhone's Settings. Its chaotic in there.

you didn't exactly give any counterexamples. yes, android's settings menus have a lot and are relatively poorly organized, but so are ios settings.

but in terms of apps, i find android much more intuitive than ios. on android, there is basically a universal back button, in position and in behavior, that always seems to just work. not so on ios, where i am constantly wondering how do i go backwards from where i'm at. the heavy gesture language on ios is very non-intuitive. for example, closing apps. on android, there is a two button press to close all apps or just a one button press plus swipe to close a single app. or there's a double-tap to return to the previous app immediately. on ios, it's a weird swipe up and right, then a ridiculously long hold, and then a one by one swipe. on lg android phones at least, there is serious multitasking. so i can have youtube playing in the top or bottom of the screen and then be browsing the web or on some other app in the other half. this is really, really useful. not to mention android can more frequently have an overlay of apps, such as video chat or youtube in a picture in picture type of situation. android's clip tray is also very useful, especially when composing e-mails that contain copied information from multiple places. on ios, i am constantly annoyed by editing the address bar. the tap, then wait, and then hit the little x is a constant annoyance because there is a mandatory wait after the first tap, and it's very finicky, as well as the little x.

yes, ios is very clean, but that doesn't mean it has good ux. i am constantly befuddled by ios design choices in how to do something. and the gesture language is extremely non-intuitive. the gestures on android or far more nature and less overbearing.

don't get me wrong, there are some things i like about android, like the am/fm radio chip being accessible and having a wireless router built in (i have an LG phone).

but the radio is a good example of the frustrating UX -- you can't use the radio without wired headphones to act as the antenna. you can't even plug in the wired headphones and then used wireless headphones for output.

apple actually makes sure the common use cases are well designed (and chooses to preclude less common ones to reduce that paralysis of choice problem), while android seems to be trying to check as many boxes as possible on a spec sheet.

closing apps on ios is a double-tap and a swipe or two swipes, depending on your phone. on my android, it's hitting a small, unintuitive square symbol and then hitting a small 'x' icon--both of which require more precision than on ios.

the lack of a youtube overlay in ios is a limitation imposed by google. ios has picture-in-picture mode but google won't implement it for ios for competitive reasons.

as for gestures, both android and ios have non-discoverable gestures, but i think ios's gestures are more intuitive overall. as in, once you find the gesture, you go "oh right, that's exactly what i would have expected that gesture to do there." i don't always have that satisfaction on android.

this, of course, is how i experience the two operating systems, so i'm not trying to discount your experience.

A few things that come to my mind that are better on Android: On Stock Android you can edit quick access settings; It stacks notifications (but it is coming in the new iOS) and allows quickly replying from notification screen; * Better structured settings menu; * Having shortcuts for frequently used apps or actions and having widgets for notes/calendar on the home-screen save multiple taps and swipes and provides all that info at a glance without opening specific app; * Android Phone app with contacts is also easier to use since search is available on all of the tabs and it provides grid view with most commonly contacted contacts. It also searches in company contact directory, a setting that is hidden under multiple clicks on iOS.

This is a bit funny, everyone said how intuitive iPhone is, but on the first day I accidentally opened magnifier and was unable to close it without getting to my computer and googling. None of my friends who had iPhone knew what that square was and how to remove it from the screen. It is not intuitive in any way to do 3 finger double tap.

And even custom keyboards are too limited by iOS SDK. For typing in languages where symbols with accents or diacritics are used it is inconvenient that the long tap doesn't bring the wanted symbol in focus and you have to swipe as well. That is not a problem on Android.

And you have to know when and where to swipe left or right to bring up some other menu or to go back one step. On Android you just click the OS back button on the bottom of the screen. For app switching - there is a button for that.

Overall it requires more clicks and swipes on iOS to get around.

I am not sure what Android version You used but the stock Google Android was a lot better in many ways. Sure, there are cool iOS features as well that are not available on Android but there are very few of those.

I am all with you on the UX thing. Hell sometimes I dont even know how to go back in an app. Sometimes there is a back arrow on the top left, sometimes there isn't. I just give my wife back her phone and tell her I can't use it out of frustration and she needs to do it. The back button is always at my fingers reach on my Android phone and despite hearing complaints about not knowing how it would function I have found it reliably functions the way I predicted in 99% of the uses

> Android apps have no proper inspection before being released on the market

Apple isn't all that much better.[0] Moral of the story is, you shouldn't expect app store maintainers (google, apple, fdroid, whatever) to be effective at protecting you. The task is almost certainly automated, and error-prone, or dependent upon a small group, and error-prone.

0. https://gizmodo.com/top-apple-mac-app-secretly-sends-your-br...

Apple is better overall for app quality because they do actually check apps have a purpose and aren't pretending to be something else. I have watched colleagues get apps approved and it is probably automated to a degree then definitely reviewed by a human if anything suspicious comes up. They were using the camera with explicit permission from the user, but the user couldn't see the camera feed, so Apple asked that an indicator be added whenever it was actively in use.

Some things may slip through the cracks, but the Google Play store allows almost anything to be published with little to no checks at all.

No one is mentioning that Apple is a hardware company first. They're not an ad company that makes hardware. Completely different approach and their stance for privacy makes sense.

[deleted]

Your comment is totally absurd and unrelated. We are talking about Privacy - if you're in the business of selling targeted ads (Google), you have a conflict of interest with regards to Privacy. What does this have to do with driving competitors to ground!???

Edit: Looks like you've edited with additional information. Still you're off track with my point.

What is absurd is that one of the two largest smartphone ecosystems (Android/Google) is run by a company for whom their supposed "customers" are in fact also a product, with Google double-dipping by selling us off to a second set of customers (advertisers). It boggles the mind how... understanding... people are to Google's business practices; "well, they're an ad company, so it just makes sense they they'd want to put devices into people's hands that vacuum up as much personal data as humanly possible – I'll buy two please!".

I roll my eyes every time someone talks about the "premium price" of Apple hardware. Apple hardware is not all that much more expensive; it's just not subsidized via tracking/profiling (loss of privacy), and subsequent advertising, the way the competition is. This has always been the case with Android/Google, and more recently even somewhat true with Microsoft (Windows 10 and its multiple shenanigans).

> I roll my eyes every time someone talks about the "premium price" of Apple hardware. Apple hardware is not all that much more expensive; it's just not subsidized via tracking/profiling (loss of privacy), and subsequent advertising, the way the competition is.

I understand your sentiment about the price being subsidized with vendor lock in, advertisement and data gathering. But the point on the price might be true for the US only.

In most of Europe, as well as in my country, (let alone poorer parts of the world), a used, cheap iPhone can cost as much as two months of the rent money for a small apartment; a new iPhone/Apple device is out of the question.

So the dilemma for most people either no smartphone or an Android smartphone.

This is the primary reason I'm sticking with Apple over Android, even as Android hardware gets nicer and Apple software gets worse.

I don't take everything they say on faith, of course, but it seems plausible for them to take that stance given that their business model is to build and sell phones and software, as opposed to building up a profile of me to sell to advertisers.

On the other hand, Apple does not think that freedom of expression is a fundamental human right (since freedom of expression is also the freedom to install the apps you want without a gatekeeper) Their devices are completely locked down, and the user is helpless if Apple decides to become hostile, like in China where all iCloud data is in the hands of the Chinese government and many apps are banned.

The way they describe the implementation, it basically sounds like they're intentionally trying to screw Facebook and Google. That it also benefits the user is likely just a side-effect, but that's what marketing is for.

That’s how capitalism should work, buddy—companies competing with each other to win users. I absolutely do not see why this is a problem.

I didn't say that it is a problem. I'm just saying that it's a more likely explanation than Apple suddenly being sincerely concerned about everybody's privacy. If it benefits us, I couldn't care less either way.

It will be interesting to see if they "fixed the bugs" that allows the nsa onto ios.

points browser to eff.org

Ever since that letter I can't take Tim Cook or Apple by their word.

Now they need to make everything on iCloud to be e2e encrypted. I wouldn't mind sacrificing the web client interface to do this, but I could imagine that you could make a web client that respects the e2e / client side encrypted use case.

Then I would be comfortable in having my photos and notes on icloud.

> Apple believes privacy is a fundamental human right

But not the ability to run software not approved by Apple.

Apple also believe providing them with significant margins is also a fundamental human right.

I think this push is because other differentiators (that justify their 'premium' price) are running out...

Apple's massive profit share notwithstanding.

You can with a local dev certificate. But you can’t distribute it to others, unless they have one themselves we.

But to get a local dev cert you have to ask Apple, so it amounts to the same thing.

> on-device intelligence

The fuck does that have to do with privacy? That's an incredible vague thing they are saying. Does it decide what is/isn't 'private' information for sharing? It just seems way out of context, and odd, to be mentioning in the same sentence.

Well, if you need to share private information to eg Facebook's cloud infrastructure just to gain their AI intelligence then you've given up your information and arguably privacy.

By providing more On-device intelligence Apple believes you may prevent or reduce that initial egress of data outside your hardware where it's stored encrypted.

Feel free to argue the point but no need for the histrionics.

A good example is the image tagging in Photos which has been there for quite a while, if you search for a term in your images folder it'll show you images they classified with that term. This applies regardless of if you are using iCloud or not as the classification is performed locally, keeping your images on your device as opposed to sending them off to be classified on a server somewhere.

It means it would do e.g. the adjustable photo background bokeh effect on your device via its onboard NPU rather than upload it to Apple servers for them to process it for you.

In part, I would think they are referring to CoreML, onboard machine learning framework.

The new Shortcuts app by Apple (must be downloaded separately: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/workflow/id915249334?mt=8) is definitely interesting. An example from the description: "Run custom scripts in Safari with the new Run JavaScript on Web Page action".

Edit: Just discovered that there's also "Run Script Over SSH" that takes input passed to a shell script (stdin) and returns the output from the shell script (stdout).

Minor note for former Workflow users, it appears that the old Workflow app automatically updates to Apple's new Shortcuts app when you install the release version.

I'd been on the public beta and was surprised to see Shortcuts preinstalled when I updated.

Anyone notice any major downsides, regressions, feature removals? The original app was powerful but quite complicated to use, I imagine Apple dumbed it down a bit for widespread adoption.

I lost most of my publishing shortcuts, which was expected, but lost the complication in the Apple Watch and its button launcher, which was critical for my commutes...

They added the ability to record a custom Siri command to trigger a workflow, perhaps that might help.

No, they also broke all forms of watch input. There is zero UI for shortcuts on the watch, so I can’t tap a complication and use a simple menu to fetch ETAs for public transit anymore.

You missed what the parent was saying - assign your shortcut a Siri phrase and then use it in your watch. I’ve been doing that since the Shortcuts beta started and it’s fine.

It doesn’t work when the background actions require some form of interaction

The "new" app is actually not so new, and it was previously called Workflow (https://www.workflow.is/). Looks like they bought it and rebranded it as Shortcuts.

The bought it early last year. https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/22/apple-has-acquired-workflo...

I never used it before, or maybe once on my iPad. But did it have as tight an integration before? I assume Apple added some iOS level things that really put it over the top. The Siri shortcut for sure. Either way I’ve already spent a couple hours with it today just hacking random scripts together. It’s great!

It looks awesome. I can put that shortcut as a separate app. Very promising.

> Run custom scripts in Safari with the new Run JavaScript on Web Page action

Does this mean it's possible to have a javascript run after page load every time? This would effectively make it possible to have a browser extension. Previously it was limited to "action extensions" — which had to be manually activated on every single page. This could take 2-3 taps, and obviously they were hardly ever used.

I think you have to manually trigger it.

I'm loving the new Shortcuts app, but I've found bugs.

The "Get current location" action doesn't seem to work reliably outside of the Shortcuts app itself. Particularly not within Siri.

Is it a location services privacy issue?

I tried `Calculate tip` from gallery.

> How much is the bill?

> Your tip is $2.500,00 and your total is $2.550,00

After installing it, head to https://purecycles.com/products/urban-commuter-bike to see the best feature. Placing 3D models in your house via ARKit right from Safari.

Writeup on this Shopify rollout: https://www.shopify.ca/blog/shopify-ar

That's really cool. I'm looking forward to more sites implementing this. Imagine if every Amazon product had this.

... or every IKEA product!

Although not _every_ product, such a thing exists! https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ikea-place/id1279244498?mt=8

I see the ability to overlay a transparent image over what I’m seeing through my camera. Am I missing something?

It does plane detection and can place a 3d object on that plane, scaled accordingly. You can move the phone around the plane (floor, tabletop, etc) and the object stays fixed as if it were physically in that place. The 3d object is also textured and takes into account ambient lighting to shade it. The result is actually rather impressive!

This the most stable iOS beta I've ever used.

It's exciting to see Apple focus on quality, even if the marketing page doesn't end up as flashy.

Yes, it’s been completely different compared to both iOS 10 and 11 betas where the latter can barely be called stable even in the GM release. I hope it’s the fruits of some change in engineering.

Already noticing small but appreciated performance improvements. Share sheet and app switching both came up noticeably quicker.

Am loving shortcuts, looks like they didn't dumb it down. There's even an SSH action.

Which app is providing the SSH action?

No idea, I didn't dig into it. I think it had the general "Settings" gear as the icon so maybe it's provided by iOS?

It is the app formally named "workflow" that apple acquired some time ago. It got renamed to "shortcut" for iOS 12 and has this ssh action in it.

If you already had the old "workflow" app it will be updated to the new "shortcut" app, if you do not have it you need to install it from the App Store.

I am familiar with shortcuts, but I didn't think that there was an actual SSH action that was shipped with it, I thought there was an SSH action that an application may be providing.

I'll have to check it out.

In iOS settings > workflow (yes, it is still labeled workflow in iOS settings!), it credits NMSSH which appears to be an objc wrapper on top of libssh2.

Sadly it doesn't look like it supports ssh-keys.

I only use SSH keys, but if one uses a sufficiently complex password my understanding is that the primary risk of a password vs key is that the SSH host gets a copy of it (specifically /etc/shadow). If you control the host, I could see a password being an acceptable solution, maybe.

Worlflow/shortcuts can also arbitrarily HTTP GET/POSTs which is likely the better route in any case.

> This the most stable iOS beta I've ever used.

Is it a beta? It looks like the official release to me.

I think OP is implying he/she has been using the beta iOS 12 and it is stable.

The joke is that the .0 releases are actually beta quality.

Been running iOS betas on my primary device since around iOS 8 or 9, and never really experienced any super annoying bugs until the 11 beta, which made me question if I really wanted to run betas on my phone ever again. But, my impatience gave out and I upgraded to the 12 beta, and it was like I had a new phone.

Updated to the GM a couple days ago and my 6S is running as good as the day I got it. Super happy with iOS 12 currently.

It really is great. I was having terrible input lag before, and now it’s completely gone. Everything from switching apps to opening a new webpage seems zippier too. Autocorrect seems to have gotten a bit of an upgrade, it’s suggestions are coming up much faster and they’re a bit easier to select.

I had a different experience: after some updates, around build 7 or 8 I lost cellular connectivity completely. It said there wasn't carrier data available and that I should update. To update, I needed to verify the download... which failed because it didn't have access to the modem/carrier data, even though wifi should have been enough. Long story short, I had to do a restore from iTunes (another nightmare for me -Linux user-), and after that discover that my backup "wasn't compatible" (fortunately I had made a manual backup of my photos and other content, but all the settings got lost). I've been using iOS for a year now and I definitely miss Android, even if it isn't as polished as iOS.

I've been using the beta for a few months now. Overall I'm pretty impressed. It really does make my phone work better than before.

But I'm most excited about Waze support on CarPlay, which does not appear to have dropped today.

What's the typical sequence when a new iOS version hits and then all the apps that were developed in beta need to release fully?

They're given a couple days to submit apps built with the golden master version of Xcode. Usually, this is on the day the new iPhones are announced.

And every year Apple introduces bugs in the GM build that weren't there in the last beta build.

Always fun to be an iOS dev. :)

We got the GMs last Monday, so we got a week to regression test against it vs the previous betas.

Well, the Xcode GM dropped with the new hardware because it contains references to it. So you weren't allowed to submit with a beta toolchain before then.

They've been allowed to post on the store for a couple of days, I think. I installed a bunch of updates yesterday and most of them were "Added Siri Shortcuts support."

It’s been uneven as usual. There have been stories of apps being rejected because they mentioned new features or iOS 12 in the release notes even though other apps have been able to do that.

As of a few days ago, the rumors were that Waze support was still in early beta and a ways (sorry) off, but that Google Maps would likely land in October.

Chrome for iOS just went through a huge UI redesign a few days ago. It autoupdated the other night and really threw me off.

This makes me sad. It was the main reason I started running the beta -- because I foolishly thought they already had the beta of CarPlay support, since it was shown in the keynote. I only found out later that the keynote was just vaporware.

Apps need to wait until the general release before they can push updates through the App Store.

it’s not in waze beta yet either though

On Friday they pushed a uuid beta/submitted testflight beta, according to their latest email. I just got a waze testflight update today, so I'm assuming that was what was pushed.

yup just got the email earlier today too

Yeah I assumed I'd need to use Testflight, but it's not even there yet.

You need to be invited to a beta for it to show up in Testflight. Testflight doesn't support open public betas.

I’m in the Waze beta program, and just received the update that has CarPlay support. I’ve only done about 15 minutes of testing but so far it works pretty well.

MacStories has published their yearly review of the new iOS. The 42250-word long breakdown of iOS 12 goes into detail on every new feature.

https://www.macstories.net/stories/ios-12-the-macstories-rev...

Everyone here who is a developer or interested in automation should read page 7-9.

https://www.macstories.net/stories/ios-12-the-macstories-rev...

For iCloud Drive, we should be able to manage which files are saved locally and which aren’t. As is, documents can be manually downloaded but there’s no way to reverse it and have the given documents stored back only in the cloud (freeing up local storage). Then magically a week or more later stuff is uploaded and no longer stored locally. It feels fickle and frustrating.

It's been a lond time, but I read that you can add specific suffixes to folder names to control syncing.

I think it was ".nosync" and ".tmp"

Cool tip, thank you.

https://forum.keyboardmaestro.com/t/exclude-files-folders-fr...

Also "Bailiff":

"Bailiff is a simple menubar app which lets you evict iCloud files and folders from local storage, or download them when you want. Saves your Mac’s startup disk from getting cluttered with files you don’t want or use."

https://eclecticlight.co/downloads/

Not sure what kind of dumb method this is. You can't possibly change a project's folder name just because of your need.

At least if it was by creating an empty file with that name.

Also iCloud Drive's synching has been an utter mess and I gave up after nothing syncs at random times.

> Not sure what kind of dumb method this is

That's not very nice. I'm just trying to help and that seems to be the only thing that seems to be working.

I don't work at Apple, so...

This is what I'm waiting for to move wholesale from Dropbox to iCloud Drive, some sort of file attribute that can be sent to say "only store in cloud, keep a local stub" or "ensure always locally cached/pinned locally". Would also love to see iCloud be a Time Machine backup target.

I'm waiting for the ability to share folders.

Also, for anyone thinking of using iBooks with iCloud Drive (iBooks syncing via iCloud, or whatever it's called) and importing ebooks or PDFs from iCloud Drive into iBooks, be aware that they will disappear whenever your device is low on space.

I loaded up a bunch of travel books on a 32GB iPad for an overseas trip this summer only to have them all evaporate shortly thereafter. Every time I got on decent WiFi I would redownload and reimport them from iCloud Drive. Sometimes they would stick around for a few days and sometimes they would be gone in literally hours (gone from the device, not from iCloud Drive).

Incredibly frustrating if you have big reading plans for your offline time. My understanding is that there's no way to get the books to stay put without disabling iBooks iCloud syncing and then loading or importing them the old fashion way (from Dropbox, or via iTunes etc).

This is what the App Store is for, no? There are a bunch of great ePub/pdf apps that aren’t designed by Apple.

Google Play Books is not fancy but it does work fine, is crossplatform and free.

My guess is that the privacy/tracking on Safari is going to be turned on for all apps. iOS will soon keep track, at the OS level, of whether apps are allowed to access your Advertising ID. If you say no, then ad-based apps simply will not be able to access your advertising ID and/or SKAdNetwork will be used at the system level to anonymize you as a user. Not sure what they will do with other tracking (like analytics). https://developer.apple.com/documentation/storekit/skadnetwo...

Does anyone know if and what concrete changes have been made to Core NFC, beyond the speculation beforehand [1]? I understand there has been a beta of iOS 12 for a while now. The documentation still shows information for iOS 11 [2]

[1] https://9to5mac.com/2018/05/25/apple-will-reportedly-open-up...

[2] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/corenfc

The WWDC app has a new short video called “What’s new in Core NFC” which mentiones the new features in the Iphones such as reading NFC in the background.

Any news on writes? I assume no... :/

unfortunately not, waiting hard :/

"On devices without 3D Touch, touch and hold the keyboard Space bar to turn your keyboard into a trackpad"

This is subtle but huge. One of the main reasons to get a phone with 3D touch is/was the ability to easily move your cursor when typing. This makes the XR model (which lacks 3D touch) a lot more enticing.

Finally. Man I’ve had this feature on my jailbroken devices for over 4 years. And every update I would hope they would add this. Clicking around with the cursor was always so stupid because almost all quick cursor changes would be ~10 characters back, aka not a huge amount of movement.

Some keyboards have this feature like Nintype (which is over engineered imo), but I’ve always wanted this natively. Glad to see it coming.

I GBoard had a proper version of this, theirs only allows horizontal scrolling

I'm really psyched to have the new Screen Time feature working across my family. It's got some quirks which I suppose will be smoothed out in time, but it's still lightyears better than previous third-party programs.

The only thing I wish Apple had done was create a separate app to control the restrictions, or at least provide an API so someone else could do it. Digging all the way into Settings to change time and lockout settings is already a pain.

Yes it is a marketing move but it also makes things a lot easier for Apple. It can’t be forced to give up data to law enforcement that it doesn’t have and it lessens the amount of data that can be stolen in a security breach.

sorry, what does Screen Time have to do with law enforcement/privacy?

Your OP might have meant to reply to this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18008519

Yeah I replied to the wrong post.

Just add the screen time widget and access from there, like it’s own app.

That's a good start, thanks.

From the update description: Portrait mode improvements preserve fine detail between subject and background when using Stage Light and Stage Light Mono effects

I thought that iOS 12 would improve this for Portrait mode generally. I have an iPhone 7 Plus and sure hope that these benefits are available on my iPhone (which doesn't have these specific effects — just vanilla Portrait mode).

Has anyone see improvements in Portrait mode in the beta?

As far as I know (and can see on my 7+) there are no visisble improvements. But 3rd party apps e.g. like Halide can use the new APIs for more accurate background blur.

Here is a decent breakdown (unfortunately as a Twitter thread):

https://twitter.com/tobiasdm/status/1007229233104588801

also (from the Halide.app dev):

https://twitter.com/sandofsky/status/1027072222425317376

Thanks for these! I'd seen the latter, and assumed that if the edge detection algo was refined, then it would be available everywhere that it's used. From the other commenter, it seems like maybe not. I wish I'd taken some "before" photos so that I could compare after updating.

I'm still on iOS 10 on my iPhone SE. Why should I upgrade?

Even if there was a convincing reason to, I'm afraid performance will tank, as it often does on older iPhones getting their last update.

"iOS 12 on the iPhone 5S, iPhone 6 Plus, and iPad Mini 2: It’s actually faster!"

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/09/ios-12-on-the-iphone...

This is persuasive, but I wonder why they didn't test the SE. Maybe because the 5S is older but quite similar/appeals to the same market?

The SE is basically a 6 in the 5S form factor.

It has the 6S's internal hardware, not the 6's. So it's way more powerful than the 6, let alone the 5S.

There are actually two phones called iphone se. It was updated from iphone6 hardware to iphone6s hardware partway through it’s life cycle withou a change to the name. The updated SE is also availible in rose gold while the original was not.

That is not true at all. There’s only ever been one SE and it was always based on the 6S hardware. The closest thing to a refresh was a mid-cycle bump to the base storage.

The iPhone SE launched with 6S internals and has never been changed except for a storage bump and a price drop.

Faster than ios 11. Unclear if it's faster than ios 10.

What about security updates?

Security updates and significant speed improvements are sufficient reason to upgrade, I'd think. Siri Shortcuts is also a pretty incredible feature if you're a power-user.

Security updates are probably the most compelling reason.

I'm extremely skeptical of claimed speed improvements. Are there third party benchmarks? Are these improvements over iOS 11, or iOS 10? iOS 11 was an absolute horror show from that and many other aspects.

Over iOS 11. And I encourage you try try iOS 12; I've been using it for three months and it's been really fast in my experience.

There were issues with the scheduler in the kernel code in iOS 11 that IIRC had lingered since iOS 7. The difference can be pretty remarkable. Basically iOS can ramp up resources where they are needed much more quickly, so one might say it’s using the CPU more efficiently. It eliminates a lot of stuttering for me. I was worried it might come at the cost of battery life but I haven’t seen many differences there besides some iteration during the beta.

Been using the beta on my 6S for the last month or so and the speed increase is noticable.

The keyboard especially feels faster and more fluid.

They’re definitely wanting to shut down the ‘apple slowed down my device!!1’ narrative with this one.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/09/ios-12-on-the-iphone...

Maybe in theory security updates are worth it, but in practice if an update slows down my day-to-day usage that’s a bigger deal than some theoretical security vulnerabilities which I’ve never actually experienced on any iPhone. Especially if we’re talking about non-tech savvy users. So an update better have some compelling reasons to upgrade besides security.

Why the downvote? Is it such heresy to say that many users care more about performance than security? I’m not suggesting that security is unimportant, just that it’s not very compelling if it’s at the expense of performance. For example see all the recent Intel processor exploit patches. Personally I would take an obscure attack vector on my private desktop computer over a ~5% performance loss.

One of the main focuses of iOS 12 was improving performance across the board, especially for older phones.

And I'm on iOS 11 on the SE, and it works just fine. So 12 should be ok.

I'm using iOS 11 on an almost 4 years old iPhone 6, and it works fine for me too.

Yeah I'm hoping 12 delivers on the performance improvements it is promising. iOS 11 all but bricked my 6 plus.

Been using it for months on my 6 and it’s great

Also had a bad experience on my 6 Plus, but then I did a factory reset of the phone and it has been performing pretty well as a result

Well just the other day there was a bug that causes iOS to restart if a webpage is structured in a particular way

Edit for more information: I've been using iOS 12 on my SE for a while (beta) and while in all honesty I've not really found anything particularly great, more importantly I've not had any non-beta-related issues - slowdowns or otherwise

I am looking forward to playing with shortcuts, but have yet to

This hasn't been fixed; the build that went out was the same as the golden master seeded to developers last week that was still susceptible.

Is this triggered by many "real" websites, or just by a site that's designed to trigger it, e. g. a proof of concept? Is it a security risk or just annoying?

It was a proof of concept; something like a thousand divs overflowing a buffer or something like that. I haven't seen anyone write an exploit for it.

Common theme in application security: crashes are either exploitable, or not yet exploitable. Unless the app crashes in a completely static and 100% repeatable way, there's a good chance someone is working on creating a specific, exploitable setup using it...

iOS 12 will likely not be iPhone SE's last update, since iPhone 5S got the update this year. And iOS 12 specifically focuses on performance for older devices.

Until a couple of days ago, the SE was still on sale directly from Apple. I expect many more major updates to come.

Right - it should be at least 3 years more.

Plus it’s the same as an iPhone 6s. So no reason to drop support unless you’re also going to drop that.

When it goes unless they’re making a very specific decision to remove the smallest screen size there’s going to be a LOT of phones getting cut.

It did wonders for my 5S and 6 Plus in terms of performance.

Edit: should clarify I have been running the beta and upgraded to the GM last night. Performance during the beta cycle and release version has been fantastic.

I was also on iOS 10 on my iPhone SE until a couple weeks ago. The blocker for me was that I wasn't able to open my credit card app anymore to see my balance, because they stopped supporting iOS 10 (there were other app updates that were pending my iOS upgrade). I upgraded to 11.4.1. I'm hoping to stay on that until iOS 13 is announced. I prefer stability, so I prefer staying on the latest minor version of each iOS release.

Waiting until I'm forced, then going for the most stable minor version is my current plan.

iOS 12 has been significantly more stable for me than iOS 11, even back when it was in its early betas. So I wouldn't hesitate to not update.

In my personal experience, and from reading what pretty much all other beta testers have said, iOS 12 is faster and more stable than any iOS 11 release.

You are still on iOS 10?

If all the things work for you and you are ok with unpatched vulnerabilities, stay that way.

From the arstechnica benchmarks (linked in another comment on this page), it looks on par with iOS 10.

I've been on the beta with my SE for a few months, you should be fine.

I think you should, it is the best iOS release since the original iOS.

The SE has the internal of 6s, and I was originally planning to upgrade my 6s Plus to Xr, but after iOS 12 update I am convinced this phone will last me another year if not more, assuming subsequent iOS update don't slow my phone again. It just felt as if it was new when it came with iOS 9.

The number 1 reason is that you're operating an older, insecure version of iOS and you could get your entire device compromised just by getting a malicious text message or visiting the wrong web page.

I’ve been running the beta on my SE and my main complaint is much of the UI seems optimized for the newer, larger screens. So expect additional scrolling, etc (even with the os text size set to minimum). Feels kinda like how Gmail/Google keeps adding extra padding and reducing useful screen estate.

Many of the major app developers only support two OS versions back, eg iOS 11 and iOS 12 now. If you don't upgrade then you might stop getting updates for some apps.

As someone else pointed out, security is a good reason to upgrade, since iOS 10 hasn't seen updates for longer than a year and since iOS 12 is a performance focused release.

At the same time, I hate the change that came with iOS 11 for WiFi and Bluetooth in Control Center. Toggling them only disconnects them temporarily, and doesn't turn the radios off. WiFi and Bluetooth will automatically reconnect if you go to a different location or at 5 in the morning local time. So Control Center is useless if you want to turn off the radios (to save on battery, depending on your location and other factors) and/or want control on when and where they connect and/or want to stay off the grid on your own terms and also enhance security. You have to go to the Settings app to turn them off completely or use Siri, and neither of these actions are as easy to do as using Control Center. This behavior remains the same in iOS 12 too. When this change was added in iOS 11, EFF wrote an article about how harmful this new behavior is. [1]

That said, some (or many) people do like the new behavior in iOS 11, where they don't have to remember that they turned off the radios and want to connect automatically.

For security's sake, especially when you have a device that's capable of getting updates for several years, it's better to keep it up-to-date.

[1]: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/10/ios-11s-misleading-ish...

Does anyone know if Mojave is going to be as awesome as this iOS update?

I'm really curious if it will be "the new El Capitan", if not "the new Snow Leopard."

It's definitely faster/smoother, and the dark mode is awesome. Other than that the differences aren't that big.

> Safari also prevents advertisers from collecting your device’s unique characteristics, so they can’t identify your device or retarget ads to you across the web.

Probably easier to do anti-fingerprinting on such a homogenous group of devices.

Oh finally, I'm so happy about the notifications / do not disturb functionality - super annoying to have chat and email notifications popping up all the time and having to fully disable / reenable them.

> Contactless student ID cards. With contactless student ID cards in Wallet, you can use your iPhone all over campus to access places like your dorm, the library, and events; or pay for laundry, snacks, and dinners.

This sounds amazing.

I blindly accept these new Terms and Conditions.

I, for one, welcome these new Terms and Conditions.

This is just awesome, installed iOS 12 on iPod Touch 6 and my react-native app has stable 58-60fps during scrolling of the large list of messages!

Impressive!

I hope they've fixed the bug in Mail.app where it fixates on a particular message from a month ago, which then requires you to scroll like a hamster to get to the latest messages. And then then next time as well.

This has been around for a while, so I'm not really holding my breath.

I'm personally hoping for correct message ordering in iMessage. It frequently puts replies to questions before the question had been asked, so reading back through conversations makes very little sense.

That's been around for years as well, so again no holding my breath.

At least it's faster!

Which iOS version do you have? I recall that same issue, but it was fixed in one of the .x updates, but I don't recall which major version number.

Still happens on 11.4.1, I've got an obvious one last Saturday where I sent a photo and my friend's response to it is placed above as if it were sent before they even saw the photo.

We're both in the same time zone with correctly set clocks.

I appreciate Apple's stance on privacy, but I'm still talking to a lot of people on Messenger because the messages go in the right order there.

Huh, weird. That disappeared from my devices and my friends' and families' devices, so I thought it had been resolved. TIL.

iMessage appears to trust the time stamp from the originating device. If it’s off, message ordering will be wrong.

There’s someone whose texts to me are always “1m from now” when they arrive.

Do you use multiple iOS devices or perhaps Messages on Mac? This bug has been driving me crazy for the last year at least, and I've noticed that it happens more often when I'm using messages on the laptop and phone.

Yeah, I have a Mac, iPhone, and iPad. The photo example I mentioned in another comment was definitely all on one device (I took the photo on my phone, sent it from my phone, and received the out-of-order response on my phone), but maybe even the presence of iCloud syncing is enough to screw it up.

FYI you can tap the status bar to scroll to the top of an iOS list.

I’ve had an iPad since 3 weeks after they were introduced, and I’d never discovered that.

>FaceTime with up to 32 people at once.

"Why would I _ever_ want to do that?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzqXzYGN-gs

atleast time stamp it . god.

Its nice to see an update that is focused on better performance, better privacy, and better control over those annoying notifications.

I'm glad to see that Apple Books got some love. I was so sad when I updated to a newer iOS and Apple Books no longer had a way to find uncategorized books. All my books just would just get crammed together into one huge bookshelf and I'd have no way knowing which were already placed on a proper bookshelf.

Less buggy than iOS 10 or iOS 11 releases on launch day, at least for me on a range of different devices.

I’ve been on the beta all summer and the “screen time” feature has been a nice weekly update. Def have made an effort to cut down the time due to seeing the stats every Sunday. (Though, happily they weren’t as bad as I’d imagined they might be.)

A friend of mine is still running her iPhone 6 on the original iOS version, so probably iOS 8.

It would slow down with iOS 12, right? Those speed gains are compared to non-ancient versions?

I'm on a 5S and the speed gain from iOS 11 to 12 is noticable. Not vast, but noticable.

Unfortunately, that does not answer the question: is iOS 12 slower than iOS 8? Sure, 12 is faster than 11, it's what Apple has been touting. But maybe 11 was a dog, and 8 was a speed demon.

That said, I sure don't know the answer, or even much of an educated guess.

11 was absolutely a dog. I don't think I remember the 8 as a speed demon though.

I have a 6s. iOS 11 was pretty annoying and my battery drained noticeably quicker--I was bummed with the upgrade but I think I wanted it for AirPods support. Also I remember the "instant camera" was a feature demoed when the phone was first released and iOS 11 took 5-10 seconds to bring up the camera.

I've been using the 12 beta for months and it immediately fixed those things. I'm not sure if the camera is as snappy as the original iOS, but it's less than a second. I'm not sure how this all compares to the original iOS it shipped with, though.

I have a 6s that's still on 10. Reading this and other comments make me think that maybe 12 won't be too bad. There's a few apps out there that I use that don't work with 10 anymore and so this may be the time for me to upgrade.

I'm pretty curious about how 12 compares to 10 as well. Seems like 11 was definitely worse on performance, but might be too early to compare 12 to earlier versions.

Most phone perform the best with their original release of iOS. So 6 with iOS8, and 6s with iOS 9 etc....

So far I think iOS 12 brings back some of the original performance if not more. So I think it may not be faster, but shouldn't be any slower.

I also have iPhone 6, so I'm kinda hesistant.. Ever since the iOS 6 update rendered my iPhone 4 completely unusable many years ago, I have always been hesitant to upgrade any of my iPhones to the latest iOS, and wait until I have confirmation that upgrade was not "planned obsolescence by design". The problem with iOS update is that it is permanent and not downgrade-able.

The update seems to have messed up the color profile on iPhone X. Colors are brighter, more saturated, more washed out and generally crappier.

Isn't "brighter, more saturated" basically the opposite of "more washed out"?

I’d focus on crappier. :)

I would guess that OP means that it is overly satured, and therefore that some color information is lost.

I noticed this sometimes happening for a few seconds when switching out from some apps that play video while having high brightness. I haven't had it occur permanently, though.

Just on the lock screen for me.

I saw some weirdness on my iPhone 7 Plus also. The green icon for the Nextdoor app seems different/brighter. I thought it was just me, but perhaps it's not.

My device is experiencing this strange problem as well. Glad to know it is not just me.

And I thought I was just imagining things. Then again I always had the feeling that the color profile slightly adjusted after major iOS releases. It always felt slightly off for a short time.

How is using a custom keyboard on iOS? I remember it being really bad... like it always resetting to the stock keyboard etc.

The only problem I have with it is you can't use them for password fields. It would be nice if my password manager could provide a keyboard.

Ah dang. That's something I would really miss from Android (Kepass Keyboard).

You'll be pleased to see this: https://www.macrumors.com/guide/password-autofill-ios-12-wit...

Oh, that is so cool!

It works with Lastpass too!

LastPass has a "share" action that will autofill - I think that should work regardless of keyboard.

I use the swipable Google keyboard and it's generally OK. About 5% of the time an app will use the default Apple one, I think because they're using some kind of secure entry API.

I use Swype and it seems to work fine. Only every once in a while does it glitch in any noticeable way.

anyone know what library the stock app uses for its charts? the redesigned stock app is pretty cool, i was searching for it and seems it’s called a spark line, but i couldnt find anything in the developer docs or cocoapods

I like that you can now swipe up the app to quit it instead of long press.

Can you now finally toggle location data in the control center?

Nope.

anyone know if css backdrop-filter memory exhaustion bug is fixed? if not, i'll wait for the point release.

It's not, but it exists in 11 as well.

Is there any particular reason why you want to wait until this bug is fixed? It seems unlikely you would ever run into it in real life outside of the demo.

just because of churn. there’s sure to be an update very soon. not because i expect to actually run across the attack.

Please don't editorialize in titles here. That's in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

(Submitted title was "iOS 12 released. - What do you think? - What is missing?")

Its impressive that Apple is still supporting the iPhone 5S - a device released in 2013.

By contrast Google's Nexus 5 flagship Android phone, also released in 2013, received its last major updated in 2015.

5 years of software updates (and probably more to come) vs 2 years - that's why I switched from Android to iPhone.

The iPhone 4s was the first device to support five major software versions. Here's hoping that the devices will be able to support more and more based on 1) hardware improvements in power and 2) software improvements on performance.

That's why I always chuckle when people accuse Apple of planned obsolescence. I'm sure Apple would prefer that you update your iPhone every year, but relative to all other Android flagships I'm aware of, 5 years of OS updates is massive.

I'm not sure how what you say negates the possibility that planned obsolescence is part of Apple's business?

That’s mostly a function of controlling your own CPU architecture, as android IHVs are heavily dependent on updates from Qualcomm and others.

Also, while they have supported old devices, they do from time to time unceremoniously make old apps incompatible which then stop working.

Microsoft still has them beat in terms of backwards app compatibility in Os upgrades and MS did it over a diverse ecosystem of hardware which is far more costly.

Still satisfied with iOS 10. The only thing that interests me in the updates anymore is the security and the tables in Notes (iOS 10 doesn't have that).

I was hoping to see some Siri improvements but unfortunately nothing major there.

It does seem like they fixed the issue where Siri would give you snarky replies when it misunderstand you, but that’s about it.

Many Siri changes happen on the server, with no client changes necessary, so they would not necessarily be announced in an OS release announcement.

Apps can let you assign custom commands in Siri now. Some examples here:

https://www.cultofmac.com/576807/these-apps-just-got-an-ios-...

Requiring you to record your own phrases has a big tradeoff in that all your apps don't get automatic Siri support across all of their features, but it avoids the homophone hijacking and discoverability problems that other voice assistants have run into.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/08/resea...

This was a bit jarring to me: Apple takes a big stance on privacy as a fundamental human right but feel free to spy on what your kids are up to?

It can be taken too far, but generally, if you paid for their device and you're legally responsible for their well-being and things they do on the internet, then I don't see the issue.

Combine this with the fact that the kid doesn't have to use the device for anything/everything.

It's like wanting to know where the kid is driving if you paid for the car, the insurance, and you're legally and financially responsible if they hit someone/something.

Again, I do believe this can be taken too far (and I don't know exactly where the line is). Paying for a phone doesn't give you right to spy on absolutely everything. I haven't seen anything that is beyond just app usage time, though.

> “Apple believes privacy is a fundamental human right, which is why iOS has always been designed with built-in encryption, on-device intelligence, and other tools that let you share what you want on your terms.”

Does that also apply to PRISM? I mean can I share with the NSA only what I want on my own terms?

So from my testing with the beta, then having to roll back and losing 100GB of music, be aware that if you have an original Apple Watch, it’s not compatible with iOS12.

The just-release Watch OS 5 is compatible with Watch 1: https://www.apple.com/watchos/watchos-5/ so w 1 should be compatible with iOS 12

"Series 1" is not the original Apple Watch model. Confusingly, that's officially named "Apple Watch First Generation" and colloquially called "Series 0".

When they released the Series 2 with better processor, GPS, brighter screen and better waterproofing, they simultaneously killed the "Series 0" and launched the Series 1 as the low price model. It got the new processor but not the other improvements.

That leaves the Series 0 as the only one with the original crappy processor, and support for that has been dropped in watchOS 5.

Indeed. I had no idea. Thank you.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204507#link5

It's got zero (0) new features that interest me.

Performance doesn’t interest you? I wish we stopped requiring "features" from every software release. I'd rather have less "features", but get software that works better.

Will iPhone ever get bootcamp functionality to run Android, similar to how macOS can run windows?

From a legal perspective, could they allow the ability to boot Android without fear of lawsuit, given they allow you to boot Windows via bootcamp?

Putting technical feasibility aside, I would be iPhone for life if that was even possible.

The only reason I have yet to move fully to Android is because right now, Android without Google is such a neutered experience that I don't see any reason to try.

I only have an iPhone because of Apple's privacy stance. I hate every other element of the company.

Damn! There comes the bullying of upgrading. :( I am sure they want the best for us when they shove it down our throat.

“Shoving it down your throat” would mean that you had no choice but to install it. You do have a choice. Just ignore the red dot. It’s not that hard.

Although why you’d want to is beyond me. We’ve been saying this here since iOS was a thing. People didn’t want to go from 6 to 7, or 7 to 8, and now 11 to 12. And yet, here we all are.

In case you really do not understand please google 'disable ios update notifications' (note the hit count), or alike. (you must have limited experience in iOS despite of your long time exposure)

Please don't be personally thorny towards other users.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Do you want to suppress my perception? The tone of the answer was in tune of the reply, if one was thorny, the other too. You may choose to see that the other user was intentionally ignoring common knowledge to pick condescending tone, but you chose not to. You should not be arbitrarily partial. Thanks!

I didn't go from 10 to 11, and I think it was a justifiable decision.

I don't know, I've watched the keynote, and it just looked to me like Allison was right in saying that the company without Steve Jobs would go down.

Pretty considerably and pretty quickly, too, IMO.

Which keynote are you talking about? I thought the release of iOS 12 at WWDC was relatively well received.

The one about the new iPhones, not WWDC.

So in 7 years since SJ died they went to be 1T company. It that fast enough and down enough yet?

If money is your only metric, sure. There are also borderline criminal corporations that do great in the stock market while enslaving children and destroying the environment.

In the meantime, Apple managed to piss off most of their creative/developers user base, their software got so bad from a usability point of view that it's become a nightmare to use, their hardware barely gets upgraded and they need class actions to acknowledge that their idiotic inventions make computers unusable as computers (keyboard fiasco).

As for their most successful product (the iPhone): the notch, removing the headphone jack and removing the home button, and other design choices might be a matter of preference, but look very misguided to me--to the point that if anyone gave me any of their newer phones I wouldn't hesitate to sell it and buy a decent one from another brand.

What has Apple done in the last few years? A bigger iPad? A keyboard that stops working if dust gets under the keys? Removed a few ports people would use every day so that their products are a few millimeters thinner?

The only reason why Apple makes money is because it's a status symbol to have Apple products and they sell overpriced, inferior hardware components, not because their products are worth the money anymore.

I think people will wake up to that, sooner or later.

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