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Comment by CobrastanJorji | Hacker News Reader

I saw harvard.edu and was optimistic that this was going to be a real study. Instead it was just "haha, IRS support sucks, monopolies are bad." I've called the IRS support line multiple times for fairly non-trivial problems and had nothing but good experiences.

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Cool anecdote, but actual data shows how horrific their wait times are: usually between an hour and an hour and a half:

https://blog.callenq.com/irs-hold-times-disconnect-data-10k/

And that's if you're lucky enough to get to talk to someone. One third of calls are summarily disconnected.

> Our study showed that 1 out of 3 calls to the IRS Collections Line for Businesses would be disconnected, with this sometimes occurring after 2 hours of waiting.

And who sets that budget?

Our taxation department lets you schedule an automatic callback when you reach the head of the queue if the wait time is likely to exceed 5 minutes.

I've seen this with some financial institutions I am a customer of. It's an incredibly great practice that very few folks in the US deploy.

> One third of calls are summarily disconnected.

The disconnects are the worst part of so-called customer support because I know it is likely to happen especially as the hold time goes on. Worse when you call back they've somehow lost all the information you previously gave them 3 times over.

Blame dumb call center metrics, intentional disconnects like that keep the average wait time down which allows bad call centers to look better in reports.

A better metric would include all subsequent wait times:

Adjusted wait time = avg(wait_time) / (1 - p_disconnect)

I can see why they wouldn't want to include all disconnects in their adjusted wait time because that'd include everyone who disconnects accidentally and disconnects because they figured it out some other way.

Ironic that you complained about lack of data and then launched into an anecdote.

I have a few anecdotes about the DMV. I wonder if research would back up my hunch that the DMV is really bad at customer service. I'd certainly bet on it in a prediction market.

which DMV? In Texas I've been to some DMV offices that were terrible and some that were a joy.

I've experienced the hit/miss DMVs in Texas, and it's similar in the PNW (if you avoid the major metro downtowns, then it's all miss). I've heard horror stories about the DMV in CA.

Why do you need to visit the DMV all the time? Do you have to renew your drivers license in person every x years?

I'm from Norway, and the only time I've had to visit our DMV was when I took the driving test to get my license.

Vehicle registration every year. I've been to multiple in my country in EU, and it's always been a joy. Short wait times and pleasant staff.

Norway is completely different :) I'm american living in Norway. I'm not legal to drive, but my Norwegian spouse is and I've gone through buying a car and figured out some of these differences. He thinks the American system is insane (and is right, comparatively).

You do have to renew your drivers licence every x years, but in some states you can do that online at times. Instead of the population register, where you update your address, most places in the US do that through your drivers license. Most people's main form of ID is their license as well and most states want pictures to be updated. Some states have different backgrounds for those under 21 (the drinking age) as well.

Buying a car requires a trip to the DMV as well. There is no option of simply waiting for your papers in the mail. To complicate things further, in some states the physical license plate isn't associated with the car, but with the person owning the car.

In many states, you have to also register your car every year and update your plates. Some states you can do this online, however, in many cases.

That is on top of things like getting your drivers licence, learning permits, and all of those little things.

Thanks for the explanation!

> Ironic that you complained about lack of data and then launched into an anecdote.

I would see it more as an application of Popper's falsification principle.

https://www.sagamoreinstitute.org/case-study-in-culture-chan...
That depends on the state, honestly. I am from Indiana, where they worked on improving that experience. I haven't lived there for 5 years, but even before then I noticed a vast difference. It was no longer a soul-sucking experience that had the very real potential to eat your day.
https://www.sagamoreinstitute.org/case-study-in-culture-chan...

I’ve called the IRS recently due to them losing my filings, hard to get a person on the phone, even their advocates told me everyone struggles with it, the robot hangs up on you, when you do get someone they have no idea what to do an transfer you around, some agents just make things up, contradict policies they just told you. I ended up physically going to their office to drop off the paper work to get an official receipt they received my filing for when they lose it again. Next step is contacting my local congresswomen’s office for help. My experience at least with something very simple.

What's worse about the IRS than most is any instructions given to you by them are not part of tax-law, so you can't rely on them.
I had firsthand experience of this when I called to try to resolve some issues from a prior year. I talked to the agent and then acted on their advice. I later received a letter in the mail stating that the advice that was given was possibly not legal and that I would be on the hook for any fees and penalties if I followed it.
Luckily for me there was no consequences, but it made the whole process extra stressful.

I had horrible times with the IRS. Including demanding to speak to me directly despite a speech impediment that often makes me hard to understand in the phone and then hanging up because they couldn't understand me. I think that is an ADA violation. After doing stuff like mixing up tax payment checks and applying my parents' tax payment check to mine and my smaller one to theirs.
I don't mind paying taxes just make the system streamlined okay.

I had to call the IRS once a few years ago to dispute their dispute of my tax returns and was put on hold for 2 hours, only to be told that my returns were correct all along.

Being put on hold like that sucks... But isn't that the outcome you wanted?

At this point, I would pay a few thousand dollars to be able to say that 'My secific issue with the government, which was created by them, was solved in about 2 hours'.

Or a very small fraction of that in taxes, also ensuring vastly more equitable collections.

Last year I waited on hold for 45 minutes. When I reached the representative, she said she could only help me with generic questions rather than account-specific ones because her computer system was down. I asked when they expected the issue to be resolved so I could call back then, only to be told "Oh, it's just my system that's down. I'm just required to keep answering calls."

Me too. In the past, the IRS has been very helpful to me with suggestions for complex situations. I can only say positive things about their support. Perhaps now that they've been so defunded their support is bad, I don't know.

Same for me. I had a few tax issues 10 years ago and they were super helpful. Probably one of the best customer support experiences I have ever had.

I think the IRS had tremendous support. The people are knowledgeable and almost always compassionate. They know you are probably at least a little scared and work to find a solution that doesnt add to your fear.

Without fail it was a minimum of one hour of wait time every time I called which isn’t good for me. How about you?

I've got some sympathy for the IRS (in this limited case) -- their budget is cut by small-government crusaders, thus reducing service, angering taxpayers and thus aligning public sentiment against the IRS. Same political ideology also works to make the tax code more complicated, also achieving the same objective.
But then they're prevented from simplifying - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17751383

Large government ideology doesn't help the tax code either. Complex tax codes are a result of special tax breaks for any purpose.

Poor service though is more about lack of resources than the complexity of the tax code.

It's not so much the fault of those who want small government, but actually the likes of Intuit, etc. lobbying against tax code simplification so they can protect their business models: https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-fre...

If you have a balance due, calling the department responsible for collecting the balance is actually much faster. Don’t call the normal 1040 line, call the people who deal with money...they can do most of what the 1040 people can do and never have much of a wait.

I don't mind a wait if it means competent service on the most essential part of our society. I've called them for both business and personal issues with taxes and while it was by no means 'fun', they were both willing and able to help.
Now, the experience with Google Ads, that I can wholeheartedly echo. Every time I've spoken to them, it's just been a further waste of my time; and I can say the same of Yelp, too. So I think the core idea has merit - a private business' need to maintain and grow a customer base can be identified by how well they support current customers rather than how aggressively they advertise to new potential customers.
But like boys and girls, public government and private business are different.

The key is to call right when they open at 8a EST. Wait times are usually about 20 minutes then. The rest if the day it's at least 45.

No, this is no more insightful that when your uncle joked about the same thing at the last family barbecue, and less funny. Yes, companies don't spend on things that won't make them money, unless there's a problem in the company. When you have no competition, you don't have to worry about any quality of your business being worse than the competition.

Same here. I've gotten through multiple times. Sure I waited on the line 10 to 15 minutes each time. But I was expecting it longer hold times...

IRS was a bad example as they are not a typical business. They have to worry about voters.

Surely IRS are civil service and so are required specifically not to worry about voters. If you're a non-voter you still get "service" from the IRS (though many might wish they didn't!).
You can vote out your representatives but you can't usually directly vote out any element of your civil service.

How? They don't have a lobby. They don't advocate for any politicians or party. You can't vote for or against the IRS.

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