Comment by inferiorhuman | Hacker News Reader

Comment by inferiorhuman | Hacker News Reader

I remember when Amazon bought CDNow ages ago. CDNow let me easily find specific CDs by artist and title AND they even had a great recommendation algorithm. I discovered some great new music that way.

In 2002 Amazon shut down CDNow with the idea that you'd just use Amazon.com. Unfortunately, search has been one of Amazon's weakest features. Sixteen years later and I still miss CDNow. Amazon rarely shows exactly what I've searched for and the filtering is almost entirely useless. I want to sort by price or filter by vendor without having to guess which one of the twenty different categories an item is in (often times it's in multiple categories). I want the price of the item to mach what you've shown in the search results (or an explanation why there's a significant difference). If you can't ship something to California or the USA I want know BEFORE I try to check out. It should go without saying I don't want ads in the search results either.

To me this "fancy" search by picture is not helpful (instead it's entirely useless). If I want a fastener, I want to be able search by its attributes (something Amazon is terrible about in general). Let's say I want a pretty common metric bolt (M8) in a standard thread pitch (1.25mm). I'll go search or "M8x1.25 bolt". I get a bunch of useless filters, including:

Fastener Material: Stainless Steel, Stainless Steel 304, Steel. Right. What sort of stainless steel is the first option?

System Of (sic) Measurement: Metric. Nice that this is unchecked and the only option.

Fastener Thread Size - Mating (eh?): No Thread Size Selected, M8-1.25. This one is a combo box with a "Go" button for some reason. I literally just entered the thread size and pitch I wanted in the search query. They can parse a picture but they can't figure out I've entered this information in already? Ugh.

Fastener Grade & Class: Class 10.9. Aside from the lack of selection, this is where the stainless classification SHOULD go.

Categories... well, you've got bolts, hex bolts, eyebolts... Powersports Wheel Spacers? AmazonFresh? WTF?

Meanwhile rather important filters are missing like: finish and length.

Edit: Contrast this with Grainger (whose site is good, but not great) or McMaster-Carr (the gold standard).

Every web designer should be required to study McMaster-Carr's interface. It's so much better than any other e-commerce site, it feels like alien technology from the future.

Of course, the irony is that it could be replicated with 1998-era web technology. The difference is all in human effort and choosing the correct priorities.

Every designer period should also study it's hard catalog and mobile app, they are equally impressive too

Ironically, the founder of partpic, the acqui-hire on which this technology is based used to work for Mcmaster-Carr and started partpic as a result of customers' frustrations with McMaster's search functions. Perhaps they're aiming this product at more casual, less exacting retail customers who'll settle for only an approximate match in exchange for the convenience of snapping a quick pic. It's a shame though if they can cater to all types of customers by improving their search function.

I've had two frustrations with the McMaster-Carr site:

1.) It's slow

2.) It's hard to generate a permalink

So far Amazon hasn't even come close and this wanky bit of tech doesn't change that.

In a counter example it is great that IMDB continues working after Amazon acquisition. I think this acquisition was neutral, they removed the discussion forums and the site pretends to be "Web 2.0" but the data can be downloaded from: https://www.imdb.com/interfaces/ . The license is not permissive but the data remains there.

Sure, they didn't shut IMDB down however. Amazon pulled the plug on CDNow after purchasing them.

I used to work for Music Trader, which was a local San Diego used media chain that was purchased by CDNow. It's been forever since I've seen that name! Crazy to think they ended up being bought by Amazon. I was only there for like 8 months of their ownership, but it always felt like they were on the edge of going under. I recall the FoxPro based computer system they brought in was life changing for us.

FoxPro. Now that’s something I haven’t heard in at least a decade.

What you're describing is called "faceted search". For that to work properly, two things are needed: The product data needs to be structured properly, so that you can actually find the attributes on each product variant. This has to be consistent for every vendor, of which Amazon has many, of course. So they would have to define a common data format for every vendor selling M8 bolts, or convert their formats into a common standard, making sure all the attributes are there and can be located in the imports.

And second, someone needs to sit down and define which product attributes should be represented as facets for the search and displayed accordingly in the UI, and what input elements should be used to select the range of parameters (checkboxes, sliders, text box etc). This is not easily solved by algorithms which have no knowledge of the semantics of the attributes..

I suppose that a general-purpose, consumer-oriented site like Amazon doesn't put enough priority on something like M8 steel bolts. The facets for, say, computer monitors are much better, for example.

For, say, computer monitors Amazon has a size, resolution, 'tecnology' (LED, OLED or LCD) and the 'brand' parameters for filtering. That's it.

> I suppose that a general-purpose, consumer-oriented site like Amazon doesn't put enough priority on something like M8 steel bolts. The facets for, say, computer monitors are much better, for example.

It goes beyond that. I was searching for a water pump this evening and hit Amazon out of instinct. Despite only returning 18 results across god-knows-how-many categories, there was no option to filter by manufacturer. Amazon simply doesn't get search.

Stainless I would argue belongs in material not in grade and class as these are different attributes. You can get grade 10.9 bolts in stainless, black, zinc plated and possibly in other materials and finishes. If it doesn't specify the type of stainless steel the safest thing to assume it's a low quality material which doesn't conform to any specific specification or at least lacks the appropriate accompanying paperwork.

I.e. I'll select a grade/class based on the mechanical properties I require, and the material will be selected taking into mind the environment the fastener is going into, any possible material incompatibilities there might be, i.e. don't want to accidentally build a battery, or select materials which gall together.

Honestly I think search in this area is actually extremely difficult due to all the inconsistent standards, specifications as well as random proprietary fasteners that exist.

I find that websites that sort by category to be better in this space, but that also assumes that you know what you want.

> Stainless I would argue belongs in material not in grade and class as these are different attributes. You can get grade 10.9 bolts in stainless, black, zinc plated and possibly in other materials and finishes. If it doesn't specify the type of stainless steel the safest thing to assume it's a low quality material which doesn't conform to any specific specification or at least lacks the appropriate accompanying paperwork.

I'd disagree there as stainless (at least in metric land) is categorized, in part, by strength e.g. A4-80 vs A4-70.

https://www.hi-tensilebolt.com.au/bolt-strength-grades-and-h...

http://home.jtan.com/~joe/KIAT/kiat_2.htm

> Honestly I think search in this area is actually extremely difficult due to all the inconsistent standards, specifications as well as random proprietary fasteners that exist.

It is difficult, yes, but not impossible. This is why some of the folks have commenting have held up McMaster-Carr's site as an example.

We don't have the luxury of McMaster Carr here, but a quick search suggests that they have history and expertise in supplying engineering equipment which explains why they are so much better than Amazon.

It does seem like large tech companies tend to take less than stellar attempts into these sort of areas because they don't hire people with the appropriate expertise.

That said I appreciate the fact they don't for a number of reasons as it's definitely something I wouldn't want Amazon to step into and stomp the competitors in the field.

The app may not have it, but Amazon's retail site has these kinds of filters for bolts:

https://smile.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=node%3D1729002...

I was actually looking at their desktop site. The filters you listed are still mediocre at best. Amazon simply doesn't get search.

Example:

Materials: Alloy Steel, Brass, Carbon Steel, Galvanized Steel, Nylon, Plastic, Stainless Steel, Stainless Steel 18-8 (AZ), Stainless Steel 304, Stainless Steel 316 (A4), Steel, Zinc.

Now, I'm pretty sure you're not going to find fasteners made of pure zinc (typically that's an anti-corrosion coating on a steel fastener). You've also got needlessly vague terms like "alloy steel" and "stainless steel" in that list.

System of (hey they lowercase the of this time) Measurement: Inch, Metric, Number Gauge (wtf?), Wire Gauge. Wire Gauge. On a bolt? Ehhhh.

Do you want the square head bolt category? Square head style filter? External square drive style filter? What if I'm looking for fasteners for a non industrial or scientific use?

LOL Galvanised Steel and Zinc separately? I wonder what they believe the difference is.

The difference between zinc plated fasteners and hot dip galvanised fasteners is actually quite significant. Zinc is usually around the 20micron thickness possibly less, whilst galvanised is usually >60micron usually quite a bit more.

The process for applying the coatings as well as the end use of fasteners with the two coatings is also quite different.

> The difference between zinc plated fasteners and hot dip galvanised fasteners is actually quite significant

Yeah, but those aren't listed under coatings. They're listed under materials. And they certainly don't list the same variety of zinc coatings you could find at McMaster-Carr.

Fastener classification does tend to be a bit vague at best. Generally I find generic terms are used for low grade products, and often for products which you may struggle to find proper material certs for. Fine for general use home use, but no good in industrial engineering applications.

Id imagine that the problem is that software engineers don't understand hardware engineering, and it's actually not a space where a lot of good resources exist. I.e. without a little bit of familiarity with material science and industry, it's not just something you can easily google. You need an engineer familiar with the fastener industry if you want a chance for getting a decent system of classifications.

Also from a metric country, things like number and wire gauges are odd to me as well as I only occasionally have to deal with them.

If you are looking for fasteners for specific industrial use then I'd assume you would have the expertise to select the appropriate fastener or some internal engineering specification to follow. You don't just buy something from the scientific bolt category on Amazon. You may also require material certificates etc, which I don't believe is something these online options typically offer, though I may be wrong.

> Also from a metric country, things like number and wire gauges are odd to me as well as I only occasionally have to deal with them.

Well wire gauge is typically not how one would identify a bolt. Number wire gauge would typically be referred to by the units (either AWG or mm^2).

> If you are looking for fasteners for specific industrial use then I'd assume you would have the expertise to select the appropriate fastener or some internal engineering specification to follow.

Typically, yes although a friend was lamenting in the difficulty in finding a castle nut for an automotive application on the McMaster site.

> You don't just buy something from the scientific bolt category on Amazon. You may also require material certificates etc, which I don't believe is something these online options typically offer, though I may be wrong.

Well, McMaster offers will call (at one location) and offers phone support. The other folks Amazon is trying to compete with (Fastenal, Grainger, MSC) have a variety of B&M locations. I can't speak to material certification but I've purchased a certified caliper from Grainger no problem. Meanwhile Amazon still has the counterfeit issue to grapple with.

Yeah wire gauge fasteners is definitely weird, not something I've used, but from a quick look they exist, although I'm not sure if they get much use.

Castle nuts are a bit of an oddity too. Id assume your friend is possibly using them for trailer bearing retainers or possibly some really old suspension items. Not even sure there is really even a specification the ones available here seem to adhere to.

They are something I've generally gone out of my way to engineer out of a lot of applications as there is better options available.

Oh man don't even get me started on trying to find SAE sizes of things on Amazon. Searching for something like a #8x1/4 inch screw is a total crap shoot. Even eBay does a better job by far.

Imo most of amazon's search is slopily done. I find it mostly frustrating to use to be honest. It only works good if you know exactly what you want otherwise you just get results of products that are of questionable quality.

> It only works good if you know exactly what you want

It's worse than that, though. I already know exactly what I want (as did the parent commenter, I'm sure).

For their search to work well, you also have to know exactly how the seller happens to have described it.

Except, it's even worse than that, because, even for slightly different versions of the same thing, the description can differ significantly enough to confuse Amazon's search. This is particularly true if there's more than one seller, but I've seen it happen even with the same seller.

Usually, I find their search works, in that, with enough attempts and brute-force, manual perusal of the results, I can find what I wanted to buy (assuming it's there to be found), but I would not characterize it as working well, not for the use case of parts (or even computer/electronic components).

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