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Comment by daemin | Hacker News Reader

The problem is that in their pursuit of profit they are creating slot machines with the actual game on the side. Then they are crippling the game so that you have to use the slot machine to have any sense of fun while playing the game.

Therefore there are two choices:

Either they get regulated as other slot machine makers around the world, including being taxed as both a slot machine maker and as a slot machine operator.

Or alternatively just make a video game and sell that and not have to deal with all the regulation.

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Yeah, I'm absolutely aware what is happening here.

Of course if they are creating slot machines they should follow the related regulations. However there is nothing that forces them to make actual games. If they can make business by selling virtual slot machines let them do so as long as it's legal. After all they are not the only game publisher out there and if there is an actual need for quality games it will be fulfilled by other publishers.

The culture has changed and is ok with gambling being inserted everywhere, especially in tech circles.

Look at the threads about daily fantasy sports in HN. Many impassioned comments about how the ability to bet on sports is freedom, etc..

Not OP, not everyone wants to make gambling illegal just regulate it so some categories of people don't get abused. If the game is gambling then the existing rules for gambling need to apply, if you don't like the existing rules then you need to try to change them.

A very strong lobby exist to prevent gambling rules from applying to games. This discussion is just one battle over it.

Having the ability to bet is freedom. Being seduced (avoiding the word 'forced' here) into betting under the guise of a game... not so much.

I don’t see the nuance between a loot box and a slot machine designed to extract $50-$100/hr from a bettor.

There is not much of a difference. The question is, did your $60 buy you a game, or a program that is designed to just make you buy as many loot boxes as possible?

If the games are no more than glorified casinos, they should be regulated as such.

With a slot machine, you have the chance to win money back. With loot boxes, you don't (any "rewards" are forever locked up in the game).

A slot machine is clearly a slot machine, and is additionally labelled as such, with mandated warnings. A video game is not - a video game which is actually a slot machine looks very similar to an actual video game.

Which games are you talking about that require you to open loot boxes in order to have fun in the game? The most popular games that I can think of with loot boxes, Hearthstone, Dota 2, Overwatch, CS:GO, PUBG, all either have strictly cosmetic items in the loot boxes, or have ways of getting the loot boxes free through gameplay. Saying that major developers are creating games that require you to buy loot boxes in order to have any fun in the game sounds like unnecessary hyperbole.

"Middle-earth: Shadow of War" comes to mind. To beat the endgame you either had to grind really hard, or just buy loot boxes (to get best Orcs, Equipment and Buffs). They said that the lootboxes didn't have an influence on the game "difficulty", but after they removed the lootboxes the endgame was also patched to adjust for normal play.

They also had a PvP element where you could attack other peoples strongholds, but with the lootboxes it was also pay to win.

The classic one is Star Wars Battlefront 2 where they altered the progression system so that you either grind for an incredibly long time (much longer than reviewers had to) to get the better characters. There was an uproar about it - and the most negatively voted reddit comment in history - and then they changed the game and removed the loot boxes.

Just look at the games listed in this article: FIFA. The output from these loot boxes directly impacts your ability to play the game. It's not just cosmetic.

I feel like Hearthstone is the outlier in your list

Card games are gambling. True, you can get gambling credits by grinding a lot in Hearthstone, but I feel this is despicable especially for a card game catering to mostly underage or very young people.

This applies to non-virtual card games too (e.g. Magic, Pokemon, Yugiho). Pack-opening is kid's gambling. They are made to encourage people to open more packs/make a deck/etc. At least in real-life card games you can trade cards (EDIT: hearthstone has dust - which acts the same).

This is false. Hearthstone is a huge money pit and the items that drop in Hearthstone are not cosmetic, they are cards you use in the core game, just like Magic the Gathering but with no real money market.

> ...have ways of getting the loot boxes free through gameplay...

That's actually rather reprehensible as well since the free loot boxes involve spending extensive time in the game grinding. These children are essentially Judas goats; living enticements to other children to join their friend in the game and possibly spend money.

including being taxed as both a slot machine maker and as a slot machine operator.

In France so presumably Belgium too, gambling companies are taxed on turnover.

In Australia I'm not sure how much a poker machine (slot machine) maker is taxed over and above the regular company tax, but I know operators of such machines are taxed more (and I think that's a state based tax).

Somehow though if EA, Activision, etc were taxed like slot machine operators then they would not be as inclined to include this stuff in their games.

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