Cannabinoids promote neuron growth and have antidepressant-like effects (2005) | Hacker News Reader

Cannabinoids promote neuron growth and have antidepressant-like effects (2005)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

120 pointsrasengan50 comments

I'll also note that the human body produces its own molecules that bind to cannabinoid receptors. Physical exercise is one of the triggers for the body to do this.

It's thus not surprising that some of the benefits of exercise on the brain are seen when cannabinoids are ingested.

See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannabinoid_system

If someone can't do sport, get some cannabinoids to recover and then switch to sports back. Most efficient medicine.

Note that they didn't test any actual cannabis product, they tested one of those synthetic cannabinoids that sometimes turn up in "Spice" and other "legal highs" that seem to be less safe than cannabis.

Synthetic cannabinoids have so far struck out commercially as prescription drugs (eg. Rimonabant) and they have gotten a very bad reputation among recreational users. (Go to the gas station in a rural area and somebody will tell you how his cousin got something strange from China and stayed up for three days and bit his pitbull)

It would be nice to see this tested with THC, CBD and other compounds that are actually in cannabis. Pot may or may not be good for you but it won't make you have seizures and synthetic cannabinoids will.

Marinol is around. Maybe not a massive commercial success, but I can tell you a lot of that is because older faculty in hospitals have biases against this kind of thing. Younger fellows seem to be OK with prescribing it when appropriate.

Marinol is THC extract so far as I understand so it still counts as a natural cannabis product.

Sativex is an extract of cannabis flowers, Marinol is a synthetic cannabinoid.

Marinol is a synthesized form of THC, not a novel distinct cannabinoid.

The novel cannabinoids making headlines because they’re sending people to the emergency room, when weed is so famously safe in overdose, are dangerous (at least partly) because they bind more strongly to the CB1 receptors than THC does.

Not sure how people generally distinguish between between “synthetic” in these two senses.

I have depression and I smoke very very little. It helps a lot with my symptoms, I feel as if a veil lifts off and i get normal vitality, excitement, love of life. I do not smoke a lot since it would make me sick, paranoid, anxious. I also noticed that when i first started smoking it took me a whole month until it felt beneficial. Remember the first drink?? Probably not the best experience

Are you in the US ? I am in western continental Europe. Which kind of cannabis do you smoke and how much ?

Yes, im in the US. I have no idea about brands, every time is a different type or hybrid. I can't tell the difference but usually i choose some hybrid of sativa and indica. Names are funny and don't pay much attention to them: sour diesel, purple haze, berry whatever... Due to how little i smoke I can't tell the difference between the different brands. What i know is that it is very potent and I stay away from smoking too much. It happened accidentally and wasn't very pleasant. I buy $40 worth and it lasts me for 6 to 8 months. I use a one hitter that i fill halfway and make sure not to inhale too much. I've sort of learned my dose. Good luck.

You should try a CBD strain such as AC/DC. With almost no THC, it may produce the effects you desire with minimal psychoactive issues.

I did and it had made me a bit sedated and very little benefit. To each their own, i already found what works for me.

> I do not smoke a lot since it would make me sick, paranoid, anxious.

I don't smoke much anymore but I ran into the same problem in my 20s, where I wouldn't smoke it ever because of paranoia/anxiety. I later learned this can be significantly tempered by finding the right strain and method of consumption.

By far the best, with the last negative side effects, I tried using CO2 shatter (in one of those disposable vape pens) recently for the first time and it was a far cleaner and more energetic experience than you find by smoking it. Vaping is definitely the way to go if you aren't just looking for a groggy 'high' and want a clear functional experience.

The other big factor is tolerance. Once you develop tolerance the anxiety and paranoia aren't nearly as strong and you simply get used to it. Then the experience is far more enjoyable.

Finally, don't consume too much. Nothing causes anxiety/paranoia than taking too much (like getting 'hammered' drunk is not a good idea).

Unlike alcohol there are a large varieties of experiences with marijuana possible, depending on how and what you smoke. It takes some experimenting and experience to find what works for you.

I'd like to point out that the cause of this disparity is most likely the drop in oxygenation, and the toxic nature of what you're inhaling when lighting stuff on fire, that causes the lethargic and brain dead nature.

Vaporization for the win.

I find it amusing to see that it's so common to find contrarian research papers around marijuana / cannabis (usually because of apparently contrarian effects on different parts of the body / brain, depending on usage), despite there being so much curiosity around it.

When will this confusion end and when will we get definitive answers regarding long term / short term / frequent / seldom use? So that we can get cases on who is prone to abuse, what are the signs, etc? What frequency / reason to use is okay?

It seems due already, considering the popularity of the substance among populations world-wide despite the legality status.

I used to be very into supplements. I've looked at many published papers, and my conclusion is that there is a huge issue with the quality of publications in the health/medical field. Many of the studies around supplements are funded by people selling the supplement, and, big surprise, they go the way the people funding it wanted them to go. You will also find many independent studies contradicting these findings. You're left wondering who's right, who funded those studies, whether you can actually trust their methods.

What's worse with Cannabis is that there is a big ideological battle going on. It's gotten political. There are people who seem to believe that Cannabis is some wonder plant that cures cancer (I'm serious). There are lots of people claiming it helps with anxiety. Me, I'm 100% pro-legalization, but whenever I've tried smoking weed (of any strain), it's made me extremely anxious and paranoid. I've even had a panic attack after smoking a joint (and I never get panic attacks!). It seems obvious to me that Cannabis doesn't have the same effect on everybody, and that it's not universally good. Just like everything else in this world, things are more nuanced. I just wish people could see past their own ideology and stop trying to push the idea that this drug is either universally good or universally bad.

TL;DR: scientists aren't always impartial. They can be bought, or motivated by political ideology. Both of these things get in the way of real science.

I have panic disorder and Cannabis got me entirely off of Benzodiazepines. It may not be for everyone and certainly doesn't cure cancer, but it certainly helps a lot of people in beneficial ways.

People usually getting panic/anxiety attacks are taking far too much and I never recommend actually smoking it for beginners, instead vaporizing it at a lower temperature.

Why do you recommend vaporizing specifically for beginners?

Vaporizing is much easier on the lungs and the dosage per hit is smaller and more easily controlled (by adjusting the temperature) than smoking.

It's much less harsh & will prevent you from possibly coughing at all. It usually smells like burnt popcorn instead of Cannabis, so you can relax on that aspect as well (illegal states, smell may trigger paranoia). You can control the certain chemicals you're getting, control the amounts more accurately, and it just feels much more clean and relaxing all around. A lot of being able to handle Cannabis is setting & mental state.

I had the same problem being paranoid and getting panic attacks, but that was relieved by vaporizing. It's a more calm and chill high in my opinion.

As with everything, the quantity matters. It seems to me that you smoked too much. If you ever want to try again try the least amount possible. Don't abuse, use it like medicine. I'm against recreational smoking when it's a huge quantity like a whole joint with potent marijuana. It renders one into a vegetable. Whats the point of that?? Same as drinking yourself up until intoxication stops you.

I agree with the gist of what you're saying--we need more higher quality studies to evaluate the effects of marijuana/cannabinoids.

However, a drug that causes anxiety in some people and relieves it in others is one that might well be used by doctors (with an appropriate level of care). Most psychoactive medicines have varying effects.

Yeah. Another example: wow, is the leading Pramiracetam research misleading. Probably to justify its cost.

When will this confusion end and when will we get definitive answers

The first step is legalization so governments don't get in the way of research, ala https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17959251

It is very easy to get bad results in medical studies. Placebo effects are surprisingly powerful, and you need double-blinding to get rid of them. Beyond that, you have the typical slew of statistical fraud that can be committed: ignoring bad results (meaning that published results are more likely to be statistically flukes themselves), p-hacking, insufficient sample size, etc.

A proper drug approval trial process is one of the best ways to get statistically valid results. It is also horrifically expensive--you're looking at >$100 million for a phase III trial, whether or not you succeed (this is the main reason drugs are so expensive: you're paying for phase III failures). The studies you see are generally of much poorer quality, and most people who are interested in the subject tend to have a result they are aiming for, which increases the risks of statistical fraud greatly.

The confusion ends when randomized studies are done. If the effects are hard to measure, very small, or present over decades, the confusion will then end when a randomized study with a sufficiently large sample is done over decades.

Until then, it's just trying to approximate that using techniques highly sensitive to noise.

Not long ago i ran into conferences about thc and schizophrenia. Then someone said that if it was really a trigger, we'd see an epidemic.

I'm not pro~ cannabis, but it seems some researchers have an agenda.

Médical research is weird.

Injections in rats, tested over periods of days? What about use in humans, over their lives? For an obvious counter-point paper:

Persistent cannabis users show neuropsychological decline from childhood to midlife (2012)

http://m.pnas.org/content/pnas/109/40/E2657.full.pdf

(dunno about the team, but the paper was edited by Michael Posner)

Seems clear that it negatively impacts a developing brain. Other work that’s coming out seems related to the adult mind.

I guess I have a crappy brain, then, because it just makes me paranoid and depressed.

caiocaiocaio, it does the same to me. I think it's because I'm introspective by nature and it just intensifies that affect.

But no worries, there's always booze!

Huge stoner here. I quit for a few years, recently moved to Portland, Oregon and have started smoking again. I'm REALLY enjoying it, especially as someone who has appetite issues.

1. Smoke less. I had the paranoia and uncomfortable feeling problem for a long time and eventually I learned to just know when to say enough. In a group setting people tend to smoke a LOT, because some people have really high tolerance. I usually do a few puffs and then I'm good for a few hours... and then I eat some food, pass out, and sleep like the dead until morning. It is GREAT.

2. Go for strains with lower THC and higher CBD content. CBD is what produced the relaxed feeling and is in some clinically-approved drugs.

OR, don't smoke! I personally enjoy it but to each their own.

I think CBD will be the future. I love high CBD content things because I still get the, "good" feeling without the, "high" feeling.

> Smoke less

This. Seriously. Being just a little high can be really fun!

It’s so easy to just keep smoking until you’re a fucking mess, especially if you’re someone who used to smoke more. I feel like smoking all the time is very unhelpful for me, so I smoke rarely these days, and when I do I just smoke a tiiiny bit.

I think this may be a much, much more mild version of the phenomenon where opiate users who get used to a particular dose, quit for a while, relapse, use their prior dose, and die. You get a “serving size” in your head, and for those of us who have smoked quite a bit of weed in the past it’s easy to be like yeah sure I’ll go ahead and smoke this half gram joint and then I’m fucking ruined and not happy about anything.

But overall I’m with the grandparent; habitual smoking feels like a terrible habit to me and does NOT correlate with me reaching my goals. It most certainly does not help with my depression — quite the opposite.

I used to smoke a lot when I was younger (16 to 22), then quit. Now I am 36 and have started smoking again, this time using a vaporiser which is more gentle to the throat and supposedly less harmful to your lungs. I find cannabis to be quite safe. It's true that it makes some people feel nervous or paranoid, but from my experience these symptoms are probably the result of some sort of autosuggestion rather than caused by the drug itself. Usually I smoke at home when I'm alone, maybe 3 or 4 times a month, and I mostly just talk to myself, trying to be honest and to speak my mind. I reflect on my life, make plans, think of things I'd like to say to certain people. Psychologically I think it's highly beneficial, and I have fun as well. Then again, this is how I use it, other people use it differently, so I'm not trying to be categorical here.

When I first started smoking, it was hugely beneficial. I grew up in a high-stress environment, and while art and philosophy helped me cope on an intellectual level, it wasn't until I started smoking that I believed in a physical way many of the things I understood intellectually. When I had to quit for a couple months, it was very difficult, though, because I was still very much a work in progress. I recently quit again (temporarily) for a little over a month, and it's been much, much easier. I was worried that I might be psychologically dependent, because I smoked pretty much every day, and while I felt great, and am generally very happy, I was concerned that sense of well-being would go away when I quit again. Thankfully, I don't really miss it overall, and I feel great - just like when I was smoking regularly (same but different). I do miss it at specific times for specific activities, though.

I've been trying to quit for months but having a really hard time. It helps me with my anxiety and negative ruminations but now I feel too dependent on it.

My advice, unasked for, is threefold. First, accept that st first it’s going to be a little messy. Your sleep might get wonky, you might feel a bit depressed or “blank” and you might even have hot flashes. It will pass, and little tokes here and there don’t so much help as reset the clock. Second, your appetite might take a hit, but it’s important to eat well. Finally, keep yourself occupied with something low-effort that you enjoy, preferably something that makes you smile. If you find yourself ruminating don’t dive deep into it, just quietly say “no” and move on. When you slide back into rumination, same thing, no big production, just “no” and think about something else.

Accept that this will take time, and you won’t feel really normal for a while, but you will feel OK again.

Thank you.

Everyone is different, and I can only speak to my experience, but here's what worked for me:

I meditated on the differences I felt when high and not. Getting beyond the physical sensations, which are very nice, the biggest difference was that I was able to relax my mind and enjoy things when high. When I was high, I was not eating an apple and worrying about my daily/weekly/big-picture stresses. I was just eating an apple. I already knew that this was preferable on an intellectual level, but getting high allowed me to feel it - to know that it was actually like.

The first time I quit, I had not practiced enough to enact this in my non-high state. Even though I knew I wanted it, I let my thoughts hurt me. This last time, I had practiced/meditated enough to naturally be in the state of just enjoying an apple (btw - I don't just eat apples all day). Enjoying nature, taking walks, and my interests/passions also help a lot.

I don't know if that will be helpful to you, but I hope it is :^)

Thank you.

I get full-blown panic attacks for up to two weeks after a single drag. It's a very rare, but known, side-effect that follows from a long period of heavy usage (2 years in my case, during which time it vastly improved my life). If you're not comfortable taking it then don't, you don't owe it to society to use it: it's just a recreational drug. There's nothing wrong with your brain.

I'm sure you're experienced enough to know this but a single drag off of a joint can be an excessive amount of THC, especially considering the current strains and potency. Too many people don't realize how little they actually need or how much better the experience could be with what seems like a minuscule amount. Small drags from a vape pen are much less excessive than a joint or bowl.

Bad Advice: "Small drags from a vape pen are much less excessive than a joint or bowl."

I guess it depends on what's in the pen. That being said, I have tried an indica pen in WA after being assured I was being silly and two weeks of sensations of impending death followed.

I don't understand why "potsplaining" is so prevalent: whenever I indicate that I can't have marijuana, I'm told I'm being stupid, that it's all in my head and it's due to a wide sample of armchair diagnoses of a psychological state on my behalf.

Telling people that they have to, or should, smoke marijuana is on exactly the same intellectual footing as telling people that they can't - sans medical reasons on both ends of that spectrum.

read up on the CBD/THC dynamic, the CBD counterbalances THC. Thats why I smoke hashish, no paranoia.

Class 1 Controlled Substance - No known medical use

I agree the headline needs simplification, but think this goes to far.

Original headline: Cannabinoids promote embryonic and adult hippocampus neurogenesis and produce anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects

Suggested headline: Cannabinoids promote neuron growth; have anti-anxiety and antidepressant effects

The headline as submitted: Marijuana Causes Brain Cells to Grow and Happiness

My objections are the headline as submitted is un-grammatical and also simplifies inaccurately way more than necessary for this audience (and anyone who would be interested in the actual article)

Y'all just figuring this out now. Pfft

Well, the article is from 2005. And it wasn't the first to describe increased new neuron survival in the hippocampus from CB1 agonists. But it's always nice to inform those that missed out. Hell, some people still believe in continental drift. Old ideas are persistent.

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