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Comment by frbnh | Hacker News Reader

It's interesting that Afghan (presumably Islamist) insurgents would have any tatoos, considering that these are frowned upon in Islam.

EDIT: Not sure what's getting a negative reaction here. I was just pointing out an apparent inconsistency in the story - interviewees/journalists are known to embellish sometimes and they can get tripped up on little details.

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As a Muslim, that was my first reaction. It seems very odd. I can imagine African rebels, or South American rebels getting into the tattoo thing, but in Afghanistan, it just seems out of place. They ban the Beatles haircut, but tattoos are okay?

I've always gotten the impression that Afghan rebels, unless they're explicitly Al Qaeda (in which case they're not usually from Afghanistan), are more nationalists than Islamists.

You've gotten the impression that the Taliban are nationalists rather than Islamists? Where have you gotten that impression from?

No, the Taliban, as an organization, are Islamist. However, the ideology of the membership of any insurgent organization within an active conflict is always much more complicated than the professed beliefs of their parent organization.

The now-defunct Northern Alliance were nationalists, led by Massoud. The Taliban (and I suspect most of the other insurgent groups) are Islamists.

To be clear, Afghanistan has a long history of people changing alliances very quickly, depending on circumstance. Although groups may present themselves as Islamist, that doesn't necessarily mean that their membership have a strong ideological allegiance, and are simply involved as a matter of convenience.

This happens in a lot of conflicts, where people often side up based much more on pragmatic concerns (protection, for instance) than ideology. Also evidenced that when conflicts end, many move towards other political ideals, since the advantages of operating under a particular umbrella no longer apply.

This may be why individuals within Islamist groups get tattoos of Canadian flags: It's not really about establishing a Caliphate or enacting strict Islamic rule for them.

I would guess that most Afghan fighters are more tribalist than either Islamist or nationalist.

Didn't the 9/11 terrorists go to strip clubs and drink alcohol? The bullies enforcing the rules often tend to see themselves as above them.

Isn't it just tatoos mourning the dead?

No, permanent tattoos overall are frowned upon in Islam. Temporary ones however are ok. Maybe this maple leaf thing is a temporary tattoo..

What's the reasoning? Like, tattoos in general, or tattoos of people? Muslims don't seem to have a problem with wearing insignia in general.

Permanent tattoos in general because one is unnecessarily making a permanent change to their body for the purpose of beautification. And in general, that's forbidden. More info: http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/20283

I suppose that's why they don't shave either?

> one is unnecessarily making a permanent change to their body for the purpose of beautification

What kind of shaving do you do?

A man shaves every day he will go his entire life without a beard, is that not permanent?

In any case you can't shave on the last day of your life.

or Jews that live in Tel Aviv?

It's interesting that American (presumably Christian) citizens would murder, considering that murder is frowned upon in Christianity.

If they are theocrats who "locked men in shipping containers" till their beards grew (article), then the fact that they have tattoos in violation of religious norms is odd. Either that or someone embellished the story.

Surely you are not suggesting the Taliban represents the ideal implementation (the norm) of Islam?

The full quote is from the penultimate paragraph (which, btw, is referring to a New York Times article from November 23, 2001)...

The New York Times piece on Mullah Omar’s car also noted that during Taliban rule in Afghanistan, the Hilux and its larger sibling the Landcruiser “provided ideal platforms for intimidation and enforcement.” The Taliban rode around “ready to leap down and beat women for showing a glimpse of ankle or to lock a man in a shipping container for three weeks until his beard grew to the approved length. Or, most dismal, to drag an accused adulterer or blasphemer to the soccer stadium for execution.”

Given that this story was recently submitted, it can be gathered that the tattoos observed by David Kilcullen were not from Taliban fighters in 2001.

The article does not indicate any of the tattooed insurgent fighters are Taliban, or even Muslim.

My original point being, every religion has various tenets which are followed/obeyed in different degrees by various members of said religion. Some call them "sects" or "denominations".

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