The cult of WeWork | Hacker News Reader

The cult of WeWork

propertyweek.com

45 pointssytelus59 comments

Am I extremely out of the loop by just thinking that it's a hot desk company that rolls up all the expenses of the office adds 10%-25%, throws in some booze and lunches and says it's changing the world?

Actually yes - this perspective would discount the immense value of brand, design, narrative and belief. And before you think that that stuff is "not real", consider that the reason you do anything is because of some dominant narrative you may or may not have reflected on.

Narratives are what get people build rockets and go to the moon, or build them and go to war instead.

These things are definitely real. But while building a brand that elicits cult-like behavior from its followers is undoubtedly a huge marketing success, of which all other marketers should be justifiably envious, is it "changing the world"? The would has seen such efforts - both successful and not - since the first state and the first religion has been founded.

> Narratives are what get people build rockets

But is WeWork building rockets to go to the moon? Last noticeable thing I remember them doing is banning their workers from eating meat. Beyond that - yep, they rent out offices. So?

Whilst that's true, narratives at some point do have to meet reality. If rental prices drop by 10%, it doesn't matter what you believe, WeWork will be underwater.

Wework is underwater. Have you seen their bond offerings? They will default.

The moon thing was a cold war narrative.

It also forgets the other services it handles for you, for example someone staffs a mailroom, others clean the bathrooms and yet others keep water and coffee ready. They also provide security systems (cameras, keyfobs, etc). All of these are things a new business would have to build out and maintain in their own office.

Negative. When you rent a suite in an office building, the building management provides janitorial services, security guards, access cards and a mailbox (a small business has no use for a staffed mailroom). You do have to brew your own coffee, though.

It really depends. If you're talking about a WeWork competitor like Regus then you're right. However I've worked at startups that have rented many different kinds of offices (from Regus and WeWork, to industrial lofts, to retail storefronts). Many of these places were not "batteries included."

Not always. Our startup's rented suite in DTLA did not have janitorial services provided for (only common building areas) and no security guard. Access cards? It was a metal key.

Those are all things a standard hot desking company provides though, not unique to WeWork.

Nope. You're totally in the loop. The employees may be drinking the kool-aid there are definitely some customers drinking it up as well, but I think most people over the age of 23 realize WeWork isn't doing anything groundbreaking.

Can anyone recommend a "coworking space" [0] for people who don't like coworking spaces? I like to work on my own independent projects, preferably at a place that isn't my apartment, but I just can't stand WeWork-style coworking spaces, which I find to be a mix of equal parts motivational speech, "networking," pretension, and pretend work. It just seems so fake to me. Am I being closed-minded?

[0]: I live in NYC fwiw.

> motivational speech, "networking," pretension, and pretend work

This.

I'm in the same boat, my company has some space in one in London. It's exactly as you describe plus noisy. I really can't figure out what the people around us do all day as they always seem to chatting. Fortunately we're able to work from home, which I've taken to doing more recently, especially as the beer tends to almost always be out by the time I finish work.

Regus rents office space, conf rooms and mail drops in nearly every major city. It's like a gym membership more than an Uber meets a cult https://regus.com

For 9x5+, I recommend leasing/renting a desk or office privately because Regus wants an arm/leg at their rates.

I'm in a NYC WeWork. I mostly ignore all that stuff. I say "hello" to the person at the front desk when I badge in each morning. That's the extent of my "networking." They send out the occasional email That's the extent of my exposure to their "motivational" material.

That stuff is there if you want it and barely noticeable if you don't.

Depending on your hours and your location, Spacious[1] has worked for me (briefly). Good for "office" daytime hours when you want to work in sync with (but not actually "with") other day workers. Spacious was very useful as a parent in a small flat during summer when the children were off school.

Spacious also comes out cheaper per month than other co-working services because by design you are only restricted to certain hours of working (i.e. no 24x7 access).

[1] https://www.spacious.com/

Groups of artist-friends have been going in together on industrial space rentals to use as studios since time immemorial.

Heck, a relatively wealthy family in my neighborhood simply purchased a vacant warehouse in a distressed part of town to build out a woodworking shop, painting studio, darkroom, etc. as their interests could no longer fit in their residential garage/basement.

Of course, that just gets you the raw square feet. Outfitting the space for the work you want to do is half the fun. Otherwise, you're paying WeWork or similar to take it off your plate.

Yeah, definitely. My rule of thumb to judge if a place feels comfortable to me (or not): can I take a hacksaw out and change the place to make it better? If you can't take control over your environment, I believe it's psychologically limiting. Not that you need to do so, but you need the optionality of doing so. I've never worked in a space that was like this, though (only lived), so it seems like it could be a fun project to take on at some point.

Companies like Regus have private office space. Never have had any need for them personally as I'm fine with working from home. But I have known people who do.

I love the Brooklyn Boulders Queensbridge co-working space in Long Island City. Really just some tables and chairs but in the middle of rock climbing walls.

Can anyone recommend a "coworking space" [0] for people who don't like coworking spaces?

Look for a “hacker space” in your area.

There’s one in Sacramento, CA, and it’s awesome in addition to being way less expensive than a strictly “cow-orking” space.

Plus... lasers and shit.

Any library?

The problem with working out of libraries and similar spaces is that you have to jump outside (or wherever) to do phone calls. If that isn't part of your routine, not an issue obviously. I do sometimes work out of a library but I end up having to move elsewhere to do calls a few times during a typical day.

Most libraries have private rooms you can reserve in blocks of times for calls. I use my local library as a coworking space to escape the house (as it’s occupied by spouse, kids, and dog) when working from home.

The library?

I work at a WeWork office in the East Bay. My impression of WeWork events is that a small minority attends them and a slightly larger minority goes just long enough to swipe some free food (I would never). My main complaints are that the office is noisy and people seem to think it's acceptable to eat lunch in the shared workspace, also the keycards are terrible and usually require 3-4 attempts to open any door. As for a cult-like atmosphere, I haven't noticed anything like that, but then again I don't work for WeWork.

But the bright side about the WeWork office? On any given day, 80% of the desks are empty. I certainly can't complain about that!

I don't get it, what's wrong with eating in a shared workspace? I don't work in one, but it seems like a "normal" thing to do.

It's beyond antisocial. Being forced to smell and see food, and watch people eat can be disgusting. Some food is obviously worse than others. Deliberately inflicting it on an entire office is not-so-subtly telling everyone else that their eating at their desk, rather than use any provided kitchen or dining facilities, is more important to them than their consideration of every other person in the place.

It might be "normal" in some places, but those are places I would find detestable. It only takes one person to make the rest of an open plan office feel nauseous.

If a person can't find 30 or even 15 minutes to leave their desk to eat their lunch, then there's something seriously wrong with their work culture. It's not like they are going to be actually "working" while stuffing food into their faces. They should take the time to switch off for a few minutes for their own physical and mental health, and the consideration of others.

You'd get more sympathy without the "its for their own good" part.

Why? The point about it being antisocial and inconsiderate stands on its own.

The point about it being for their own good is separate, but still valid. Too many people end up with long term health problems from sedentary jobs, and a small amount of physical and social activity at lunch is all some people get. Missing that out can be quite detrimental in the long run, from depression, lack of motivation and migranes to bad circulation and consequent RSI problems and other health problems.

I've suffered from some of the above even with not eating at my desk and taking breaks. Some of the people I've known who basically didn't move for 9+ hours a day had some horrific health and mental problems, and because people often minimise the dangers I'm deliberately bringing them up. They can creep up slowly over the course of years, which makes them insidious and underestimated. Being "so busy" you rationalise eating at your desk is symptomatic of a more general lack of care which needs sorting out.

Places like that usually have a kitchen for doing that. But the thing is, the aroma (or stench) of the food, and the sounds of eating can be really distracting, in a grosser way than regular talking can be.

From my own brief membership at WeWork - can confirm about the cult feeling. Every member of the "WeWork [support] Team" had this airhead quality about them that assured one there wasn't calculation (or anything of depth, really) going on under her/his fanatically happy veneer.

I'm happy I read this article, because I thought I was being judgmental in thinking none were too bright.

WeWork seems to really attract the "playing startup" crowd. Lots of networking, craft beers, office puppies, the whole nine yards.

Incidentally, the hectic foosball, random barking and other sounds of great enthusiasm make it damn near impossible to actually do any deep work there.

I attended a similar industry event in 2006 called HedgeStock[1], for hedge funds and the various remora fish that feed off them. It was a very strange and quite unpleasant experience. Most of the attendees' firms were severely damaged if not destroyed in 2008.

This seems similar.

Pride does seem to come before a fall.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5059232.stm

This brings me back. While I didn't attend HedgeStock, I used to post on the Albourne Village forums of the "conference" organizer. They had a points system which I found a way to game, accumulating enough points to buy a Hedge Stock calendar. "strange" and "unpleasant" were thoughts that ran through mine and my coworkers heads as we paged through the calendar.

For WeWork the vegan, hippy vibe seems part of their culture. I had a harder time reconciling that type of atmosphere applied to the investment management industry.

Ah yes, Albourne Village. I vaguely remember their website having an actual village metaphor for navigation - I guess it was just close enough to the '90s :)

I know a few people at the NYC office and have observed some of this, but I'm not sure if that muchworse than other "startups". My own (far smaller, about $500m / 400 people) employer certainly has a bit of groupthink itself.

If the one correcting comment on the article

> Pescatarian not Vegan. Wework still have dairy, eggs and fish allowed at their events.

is true, I'm not sure how much i can trust the rest of it.

Should have gone pesca-pescatarian.

Believe it or not, the last tech bubble had a company doing exactly the same thing. They were called Regus, they ended up in bankruptcy and sold off their US division to avoid shutting down entirely. They are still running, they are significantly larger than WeWork (they have offices everywhere from New York to Mongolia)...somehow they are only 10% as valuable. Seems legit...

And the CEO of Regus is still a bit crazy about tech btw. They actually have an R&D arm that is trying to build self-driving office cars...or something. I never worked it out.

Many months ago I listened to a podcast about WeWork that summarised the problem as: renting office space is a very traditional business. It's demonstrably true that the cost of these rental spaces is cyclical with the business cycle, and companies like WeWork are basically taking on long term leases at the height of the boom. These leases are 10-15 years, and realistically the value of those spaces are going to dip at some point over that time, at which point the business goes bankrupt because it's massively leveraged.

Everything I've seen about WeWork indicates that this is exactly right -they've got a very traditional, poor business strategy, alongside full on insanity scale silicon valley optimism. Does anyone know why WeWork is valued at close to 10x competitor Regus?

Sounds like just a sampling bias. The kind of people with the time and desire to go to this festival are probably the kind of people to "drink the kool aid". They are also smart enough to know not to trash their company while being interviewed by a stranger.

If I was at a company sponsored event I would of course praise our glorious corporation to some stranger, but its not like I actually believe the hype, I just like getting paid.

The Gwyneth Paltrow of coworking.

When Paltrow was referenced in the article I was thinking, this is one of those touches that in fiction would stand out as too contrived or on the nose.

I wonder if there will be a day when WeWork "consciously unincorporates."

Oh my, are these people going to have a "Well, that was embarrassing" moment later.

Then:

A big part of being a woman is to help men [like Adam] manifest their calling in life.”

Aaaaaaaand nope.

Reminds me of a quote from The Bell Jar which will probably make you just as uncomfortable as Esther.

> "What a man is is an arrow into the future and what a woman is is the place the arrow shoots off from."

There's no shame in wanting to play a support class but don't pressure others into it.

There's no shame in wanting to differ from the status quo maintained since time immemorial, but don't pressure others into it.

Valid?

I don't think so, at least not completely. The message should be to treat others as individuals and not impose societal expectations on others.

Don't assume that the default or expected role for a woman is to be supporting and passive. And don't look down on a woman who still wants to assume that role.

a big part of being a cult member is to help the cult leader manifest their calling in life

Yeah, that was a real “yikes” moment for me too.

"There are 150 million orphans in the world, but we want to solve this problem and give them a new family: the WeWork family."

...what?

Oh, I see, it's because WeWork is launching a private elementary school for budding entrepreneurs.

...what?

This reminded me of another article I read about this company: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-04-27/wework-ac... Their value is predicated entirely on the perception. Select quote from the CEO:

>"WeWork isn’t really a real estate company. It’s a state of consciousness, he argues, a generation of interconnected emotionally intelligent entrepreneurs."

Riiiiiiight.

I'm not surprised the property industry dislikes WeWork, WeWork's success is a reflection of how poorly that industry serves it's customers.

The "property industry" is doing just fine seeing as how they are the ones selling top-shelf commercial leases in bulk to WeWork.

"Success" for these types of companies is similar to their tedious "we can change the world" mantra in that neither have any basis in reality. They have racked up a $723 million loss and are on the hook for $4b in new spending, and yet they are a 'decacorn'.

They are propped up through investment capital alone. No wonder they have to roll out these absurd claims of expanding into education, daycare and town-building.

I think there is more than a grain of truth to this.

I lose so much respect for people like this.

I don't want to offend Americans, but this is mostly an American thing and it's not just corporate: it's politics, religion, NGOs, entertainment, news - everywhere. (America literally invents it's own religions!)

The scariest part is when you meet true believers, those not just 'playing the game' but are really on the koolaid.

I believe this is because in America, people don't have quite as much of a cultural foundation to buy into, or rather, the local culture might be sparse, or unappealing. In non-American Western cultures and certainly Japan - there are establishment role models for people to look up to, across the spectrum in business, politics, nobility, etc. and there are tons of accepted cultural norms in sports, the arts, culture, cuisine etc.. There are more 'established ways' about everything from office culture, to manners, to politics, to religion. It's as though there are fewer 'seekers' perhaps because people are more grounded in their identities. Paradoxically this leaves less room for true change to happen because, in a way innovation often comes about when there's a little bit of kool-aid in the mix.

You can see this with Nike's recent commercialization ostensible social justice movements, or even with some of Steve Job's old ads. The one with Gahndi in it ... 'memba that? So funny.

I wish De Tocqueville were still alive to give us an updated view on things.

I think this is a "humans" thing. Japan and other countries have their own share of cults and group-think. Every culture has people who, for whatever reason, don't feel like they fit in. There will always be others who rise to take advantage of that.

Without having been to the WeWork event, it's hard to cut around the article author's biased take. They chose a certain writing angle. The event from another perspective may be that of a fun, tongue-in-cheek festival where people cut loose for a bit. The author might also have been the only rational one there who hadn't yet drunk the koolaid.

Handwave-y nationalistic generalizations rarely lead to thoughtful discussion so we'd appreciate it if you would please not post them.

The article specifically concerns 'cultish behaviour' in a uniquely American firm, and the author is specifically speaking from the perspective of a 'non American'.

My comment reflects observations I've made having living in many places around the world, speaking several languages immersing myself several different cultures and I think they speak directly to the nature of the article, more so than most of the comments on this thread which are a smidge colloquial side by HN standards.

Also this isn't an issue of 'nationalism', it's about culture, ironically those are two subjects North Americans tend to conflate.

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