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Comment by Shebanator | Hacker News Reader

Meh. MB are planning to start production sometime in 2H2019, and no real details about the capabilities of the car. Meanwhile Porsche's Taycan will cost more than the Model S while having Model 3-like specs. The new Audi e-tron will also have 250 mile range and a 6 sec 0-60, both worse than the Tesla Model X.

Meanwhile Tesla has another 16 months or so to keep selling the Model 3 in large quantities. Color me unimpressed by the german companies' efforts thus far.

It is telling though that most of the companies are focusing on SUVs and not sedans. Tesla needs to up its game with the X and Y to address this.

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I literally want a large Tesla Camper Van.

Or at least one of these in Tesla:

https://www.mercedes-benz-vans.ca/en/sprinter-4x4/cargo-van

EDIT:

To further this thought, what I would truly wish would happen would be that A Tesla-like "drivetrain platform" were available to boutique shops who could build whatever type of cab they wanted onto a standardized system.

I worked with a guy in the 90s that took a Corvette Z base and put a 1938 ford on top of it.

I'd like to have the same be done with Tesla drive train bases - where you can have an upper made to fit the lower. Clearly, there would have to be safety standards to be met, so don't waste time arguing that point...

What would you do with one?

Be happy that i have a vehicle that meets any and all needs that i have and ill never have to buy gas.

I hate gas companies with a passion. Having a cargo van based on tesla, id have all the utility i would ever want, and not worry about gas costs if i want to take a week long road trip, slowly crawl through traffic or haul heavy big things.

While that sounds really cool, it would also be a very expensive vehicle. Paying two strong men and renting a uhaul is usually how I handle moving big heavy things for the occasional time I need to.

The problem is with ICE campers, you can throw some extra cans on the back and double or triple your range. Doing so with an EV is impossible. The best you could do is carry solar panels which may take multiple days to get your battery to a point where you can carry on.

If the Tesla pickup makes it to market, I imagine you could build something pretty nice on the back.

Perhaps but then the added weight may kill the range. I imagine it'd be better if Tesla designed the vehicle specifically for that purpose.

Me too. The idea of being able to sneak in and out of a campsite with no ICE noises appeals as does the ability to make use of the electrics for HVAC/cooking/watching TV etc.

Have you seen any worthwhile NV200 conversions? Nope! The NV200 was designed for ICE and it still has the old fashioned bonnet out the front, and it isn't a 'frunk'. The space of a camper van only really worked in the VW bus format with the engine at the back, everything subsequent is a bit small due to the bonnet.

If you go large with the camper van then you can't park so easily hence the original VW bus form factor makes sense, particularly if there is no roof extension as then you can park in multi-storey car parks.

My ideal Tesla based camper van also has structural elements so rather than 'bits of wood' attached to the vehicle the framework for the internal bits is also there to strengthen the vehicle.

I really want everyone else to sneak in and out of campsites with no ICE noises. I usually hike or bike in.

Hmm. Aside from the occasional, excessively-loud diesel truck I don't find the engine to be the problem with late arrivals and departures. Of course, that one truck will always find it necessary to idle for about 20 minutes and perhaps perform a 63-point turn rather than just continuing down the loop to a suitable campsite.

More often for me, it's the modern headlights giving us x-ray vision through the tent walls, followed by all the LED flashlights and headlamps lighting up four adjacent campsites like Cape Caneveral. It's the excitable new arrivals, talking really loud and starting their drinking party at midnight after the rest of the campground has already gone to sleep. It's the repeated slamming of car doors every 15 seconds. It's that one person who keeps setting off his own car's alarm for some reason, and all the others who have their car set to beep or chirp at about 90 decibels every time they look at it...

Likewise. I've been considering converting my 1998 diesel Mitsubishi Delica to electric, but something fully intended to be electric from the ground up would be much nicer. Also feels weird putting a new electric drivetrain into such an old vehicle, although overall it's still in great shape.

I can't imagine buying a sedan or SUV though. The Delica is incredible for so many things - the utility and comfort is unmatched. Plus it has a cool glass roof! I hope to keep that thing running for a long time, and new fancy cars look great but they're functionally lacking in a big way to me.

How about an electric VW van? https://www.caranddriver.com/news/volkswagen-id-buzz-ev-conc...

Supposedly goes into production in 2022, and I can't imagine they won't kit some kind of camper version. If not, Sportsmobile or someone, and worst case is you build it out yourself. We're seriously thinking about one to replace what will be an old first-year Leaf and a 2005 Scion xB. Combine DogMobile and electric into one vehicle. :-)

Supposed to go into production 4 years from now? That's pure marketing at this point.

New Beetle introduced as a concept car in 1994 at the Geneva show, New Beetle rolls off the production line for sale as a 1998 model. You were saying?

I'm saying don't plan on concept cars making it to production. It's nice when they do, but plenty more fail to materialize.

Concept cars are mostly marketing.

I hear what you're saying; I've poo-pooed my share of concepts over the years. But I wouldn't have posted it if VW themselves hadn't come out and said, "we're making them in 2022." And the New Beetle is precedent for VW following through in four years, so I don't know what else you want. To be fair, VW's reputation for honesty has take a bit of a hit lately.

It's certainly not impossible that they follow through, but that's the kind of prediction I'd take a with a huge grain of salt.

The New Beetle was basically a bodykit for a Jetta, and it still took them 4 years to get it into production.

It's a car not a web app.... 4 years is a very short time for commercial scale manufacturing...

Here's a non-tracking article on (presumably) the same car accessible to EU visitors: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2017/08/19/volkswag...

If that picture is correct, though, it doesn't seem to resemble the old van enough to be appealing, IMHO. Like many pre-Tesla electric cars, it seems like it's going for that "futuristic" look...

I think there's a market for something like it, but I'd argue the Buzz's success hinges more on whether the market is big enough, and whether the car is capable of long trips - they're associated with road trips as far as I know, and no one wants a car for trips that doesn't get you there and back without worry. (I suppose there are a few years for the charging situation to improve, but I'm not counting on it.)

You could buy a Tesla semi and throw away the trailer. Or better yet - use the trailer as a garage to drive around your black model S.

Electric camper van concept from Nissan, based on the e-NV200 / Leaf. https://newsroom.nissan-global.com/releases/nissan-unveils-t...

But I also second the idea of having a "sled" available as a kit car. I'm thinking the same concept as how the Lotus 7 is delivered. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Seven

"Meh."

idk it's a very well-established 92-year-old luxury brand number 1 in their category, now investing billions in building an all-electric crossover. they already have a large established, loyal customer base. $12 billion seems scarily low; meaning they know they won't need much to be able to sell this car.

this is a significant threat to Tesla; and the definitive moment we can say that Tesla has awoken the sleeping giants.

although on the flip this will help the industry as a whole; it's more likely than not that Tesla will sell even more electric cars because of this.

The S is a pretty good car but I can still imagine Mercedes competing with it based on their luxury heritage. The 3 on the other hand is an astonishingly good car at a different price point and Mercedes will have great difficulty competing with advantage against it.

Meh until proven otherwise.

> idk it's a very well-established 92-year-old luxury brand number 1 in their category

On one hand I guess yeah, on the other - is it really anymore?

I mean their latest endeavor, the X class, is nothing more than a fancier Renault Alaskan, and an expensive one at that.

I haven't seen any high-risk effort from them in years. During the last twenty years Toyota and Honda invested heavily in hybrids and hydrogen-powered cars, Renault-Nissan in EVs, BMW in carbon-fiber bodies. What did Mercedes do aside from making good-looking, well put together cars for the affluent?

Made some trucks.

There were the autonomous F 015 videos, a sort of parlor room on wheels thing.

(Don't know if there was actual hardware or just videos. To be fair, it will probably come to the depicted solution in due time.)

I don't get the Mercedes hype. My other half's £30k (company car) Merc does have fancy stuff like auto parallel parking, lane control, auto braking etc. but apart from that it feels just as plasticky as any other new car.

Mercedes whole business plan seems to make some very nice, very expensive, aspirational cars that they use as 'advertising' to sell uninspired, middle of the road, slightly overpriced lower end cars.

How will MB they address road-trips and being able to source batteries at a low cost?

I have 4 kids, so I'm consistently unimpressed with all these 5 seat "SUV's". So far the only full electric SUV with 7 seats I can buy in Europe comes from Tesla.

It's annoying, because the X is still so expensive, and the Dutch gov't is increasing bijtelling next year which will add a huge extra cost for business leasing.

The regular Model S fits 7 with kids. It must be a fairly major cash saving having an electric car when dealing with so many kids. Colleagues of mine were paying more than 100 euros in fuel a week for large SUVs.

hmm, aside from the BS that the model s fits 7 people....

this whole concept of saving money on gas and buying a luxury car instead makes no sense.

100eu/week in fuel = 5200/yr

“normal” car = 20k

tesla model s = 80k

you could spend 100eu/week for 12 years and it would be cheaper to buy the fuel.

“nice” car = 35k

that’s gonna hit the break even in just 9 years. driving 100eu of fuel/week for 9 years is a pretty nuts amount of driving, still better to get the cheaper car

7 with kids if you get the jump seats installed. 2 + 3 + 2

Depreciation is the usually the largest factor in total cost of ownership. If you're not factoring that in, you're not doing it right.

Depreciation on the EV is pretty fierce, factoring that in doesn’t make the math any better.

Once even more EV's are around longer could that depreciation retroactively improve if it turns out 5 or 7 year old batteries actually aren't as poor as expected? A gamble of course.

Not until the advances in EV tech slow down. The difference between a 2012 EV and a 2022 EV is a lot bigger than between the equivalent ICE cars. Or take 2008 and 2018 if you want a comparison that can feel unfair but accurate.

And then you factor in the physical degradation of parts like the battery. An engine wears out at a far slower rate than a battery.

It will probably take a few decades for EVs to be everywhere, tech to advance slower (relative), and batteries to improve.

I cannot speak for everyone else, but the thing that keeps me from buying a super cheap EV from three years ago is mostly the abysmal range. A Leaf or a 500E from 2015 has 84 miles of range. I am expecting I may have a 28 mile [each way] commute starting in a few weeks. Technically doable if nothing goes wrong, but ... range anxiety would be real. I'll wait. Just three years later we ridicule any EV with less than 200 miles of range. Maybe these will hold value better? I wouldn't bank on it, and I would only consider a new EV as a lease vehicle at this time, but time will tell.

I have a Spark EV rated at 83 miles range. I commute a few times a month from Oakland CA to San Jose, 38 miles each way so I have only 7 miles margin. This is not a problem as unless it is very cold or windy or raining. In which case I try to combine the trip with shopping in a place that has charging stations.

Your 28 mile commute is easily doable with the cars you mention. I'd avoid the Fiat because Fiat, but used Leafs are pretty cheap. Or the Spark EV if you can find one. Look on plugshare.com to find charging locations so you know you have a back up plan, but don't let anxiety get in the way.

I leased our first Spark EV and had exactly zero problems an d zero maintenance except for wiper blades and a minor issue that was under warranty. When the lease ran out I purchased a second Spark EV because it handles 90% of our driving and I got a great deal, $10,600 total including incentives. Even if the resale is zero after 10 years it will be 3x cheaper to own than our Honda Fit.

not true for a Tesla. Look at the values for a used 2013 or 2014 Model S: between $38k and $45k, which is quite comparable to similar non-electric cars of the same price range. [1]

The first Leaf totally crashed in value, but that car is a POS (it's the Versa body and interior, which is absolute trash).

[1] https://www.truecar.com/used-cars-for-sale/listings/tesla/mo... (accessed Sept. 7, 2018)

Definitely they hold value stronger in the open market. At auction they do pretty bad (or did, at least, as of perhaps six months ago). Other EVs do worse. The 500E tends to go through auction at three years for about $4500, though it goes for almost twice that on the open market.

> hmm, aside from the BS that the model s fits 7 people....

With the rear-facing seats, it does. Although uncomfortably. You're better off with the Model X for that many.

> “normal” car = 20k

Yes, let's compare a value car with a luxury car. Brilliant. How much does a BMX X6 or a Mercedes AMG GLE cost?

Here's a hint: https://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicles/model/class-GLE/mode...

After you subtract government incentives and fuel savings, the costs are identical. That's why Tesla actually sells cars.

Yep. If I get a Model X I will want to do long trips with the kids in it. Probably including to the south of France at some point. I can't imagine how travel sick they'd get in the Model S's rear sets, and don't want to :)

For us the X is really the only full electric option.

I kind of regret not getting a Model X, but also kind of not... We have two kids and a dog, and have to board the dog now that she's big. The Model S with the 4 of us though, works just fine for 2,400 mile each way trips.

The one thing I really worry about in the Model X is the maintenance of the falcon wing doors.

Cars last longer than 12 years. If your baseline is a 20k car then keeping the X for longer than that or buying used is reasonable.

Really though the upside is more you have the performance of a high end car for lower lifetime operating costs not that it’s cheap.

Who will buy a Tesla with a 12-year old battery? Where will the battery/electrical motor tech be in 12 years?

Motors are not getting better very quickly because it’s old and very good tech.

In terms of battery tech, that’s going to fit in any form factor. Which means someone replacing a battery in a 10 year old electric car will be buying the same technology as a new car’s battery while expecting to get another 10 years from it. All for a steadily dropping price.

Remember, electric means no internal belts, spark plugs, regular oil changes, etc which offsets most if not all the cost of a new battery.

That's part of why I justified a Model S: my Audi was averaging about half the monthly loan cost of the Tesla in service. I mean, the service guys were really nice, but I'm glad to no longer be on a first-name basis with them.

Compared the Model S: I'm at 34K miles and just going in for the first service next week.

This is kind of true. However there are subsidies in the Netherlands for electric cars, and we pay 0 road tax for them too. That also contributes a lot.

My VW Sharan now costs almost EUR 2000/year in road tax. It also goes into the garage for semi-regular TDi engine issues (last time we had to have the ECR valve replaced which also incurred 5 hours of labour).

TCO of diesels these days is not pretty where I live.

TCO for diesels is never that good when talking about small cars. Usually people only consider the drop in fuel consumption and price per liter of fuel. Only then does it hit them that regular maintenance is more expensive, most common issues are more expensive to fix, insurance/tax could be higher depending on where you live. You have to drive a lot to make up those costs in fuel saving.

"Normal" car for $20K? Where? Part of what made the Model S attractive was looking at a Kia SUV that was well into $50K. The Kia Forte starts at $20K and it is a nice enough car, but it isn't really an alternative for someone looking at a Model S.

Compare the "nice car" with a Tesla Model 3 for a more reasonable comparison.

You seem undecided. You're asking about a $20.000 car and offering as further explanation the comparison between a $65.000-$135.000 sedan and a $50.000 SUV.

> it isn't really an alternative for someone looking at a Model S

Nothing in your comment is an alternative for the Model S. Did you ever consider something in the same category and price range?

P.S. A $20.000 car is a normal car. It's just a car. Not meant to carry handball team, not meant to do it at high speeds or useless acceleration, without driving itself around your driveway. Think of a VW Golf, a normal car.

I think we are both in agreement.

Maybe. But my objection was to the warped comparison and the fact that no conclusion can be drawn from it ($100.000 Model S vs. $50.000ish Kia SUV).

A bicycle? Where? What makes the BMW M5 attractive is seeing how much a fully loaded Bobcat weighs... :)

I wasn't looking at a $100K Model S. At the time they had a $65K Model S, after EV incentives.

> bijtelling

Chrysler Pacifica has a 7 seater mini van that gets 33 miles on a full charge, and gasoline engine after that.

For my use case I'd never need to fill up, except for long road trips. Unfortunately I need a 8 seater.

I mean, it's about $43 a month extra for private use as opposed to $15 for the standard edition, it's not nothing but for someone who can afford a >$100k car it's not a 'huge extra cost' imo.

In any case I'd view it as separate from business leasing because you pay nothing if you use it exclusively for business. If anything you get an extremely cheap business-subsidized car for which you pay the equivalent of a netflix+spotify account extra next year to use privately.

FYI, according to The Verge, the new MB Ev will have 200 mile range and 4.9 second 0-60.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/4/17818836/mercedes-benz-eqc...

Exactly. German car manufacturers are announcing to start shipping products from next year. They are not announcing at what price and volume they expect to be selling those. But you can safely assume this will be very high and very low for quite some time. Everybody seems to be going on about Teslas well documented struggle to reach 5K cars/week in production. My guess is that it will be quite a bit of time before the traditional manufacturers will be able to boast similar numbers.

All indications are that German car manufacturers are taking the same path as Tesla has over the last ten years: start shipping in low volume at the very high end of the market and (re) learn how to build products in this market. My guess is that they are themselves expecting it to take quite a while to catch up; probably in the order of five to ten years. The currently announced and rumored models are stop gap solutions to not fall behind any further. They are behind in specs and pricing and they can't ship them in large enough volumes. But it is better than having nothing in the market.

It's what is going to come after those that is going to make or break them. Look for the second or third generation models of these vehicles by 2023-2025. By then they should have sorted out logistics and battery production issues and figured out how to make better EVs for less money.

Meanwhile, Model 3 sales alone are outpacing their high end conventional models in the same price class in the US. Considering that that is where car manufacturers make their money, that has got to be hurting financially. Likewise, Model S is selling pretty substantially in Europe, and out selling several of the BMW an Mercedes models in the same price class. In Germany! Model 3 has yet to start shipping here in serious volume.

With Tesla steadily increasing production, improving efficiency in their production, opening new factories (and planning to build more), rolling out to more countries, and dropping prices over the next five years, that is going to be a problem for other manufacturers for a while.

> Likewise, Model S is selling pretty substantially in Europe, and out selling several of the BMW an Mercedes models in the same price class. In Germany! Model 3 has yet to start shipping here in serious volume.

Where did you get that from? I could not readily find numbers for Europe. But for Germany this is certainly not the case. Looking at [1,2], Mercedes sells ~500 S-Class per month, where Tesla sells 50 Model S. Tesla Model S did outsell (in July):

- MASERATI GHIBLI - BMW 8ER - CADILLAC CTS - JAGUAR XJ - ROLLS ROYCE PHANTOM - LEXUS LS - CADILLAC CT6 - MASERATI QUATTROPORTE - ROLLS ROYCE DAWN - ROLLS ROYCE WRAITH

[1] https://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Publikationen/DE/Statistik/Fah... [2] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSb3BXluJYs1...

Handelsblatt reported on this: https://global.handelsblatt.com/companies/tesla-model-s-outs...

Europe is also going to have China snapping at its heels: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/103774/chinese-electr...

They will improve in time. If anything, it shows that Tesla is going to have to play hard to make sure the competition doesn't eat their market share. I think Tesla has dropped the ball by not being able to make their cars fast enough. The bigger auto makers might have access to bigger credit lines or exciting plants which can be retooled quickly if they see their electric car selling fast.

Nissan and GM already have vehicles. I believe Ford has recently changed their stance and are making their own.

Tesla had outstanding marketing but failed in mass production.

SpaceX claiming to put humans on mars in our lifetime, an active reddit marketing team, elon's twitter, and a worldwide desire to reduce gasoline usage- All fantastic marketing.

Everyone is aware of the production issues, shoddy engineering, and people are getting wiser to Elon's outrageous claims.

I dont know if there is a way to save Tesla. It already peaked in popularity.

> Tesla needs to up its game with the X and Y to address this.

Yup. Currently if you want a real SUV shape (not just a tall sedan lift-back) with normal doors, your options are the new German entries. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of people who value those qualities over 20-40 miles of highway range.

The good news for Tesla is that the Audi is the only one scheduled to release before the Y, so they have time.

It’s not about being first - it’s about being there for the long term.

Much better for these companies to take their time, get it right, and work it into their current production and supply chain than mess it all up and incur crazy high costs.

I love Tesla cars and have a lot of respect for Elon (minus a few dumb tweets), but to be honest, the viability of the firm after all the Germans come online is uncertain to say the least.

For Tesla to compete - even with a superior product - against tried and true brands that have been around for a century is going to be tough. Heck, look at tech; even IBM is still around today!

Where did you see large Tesla 3 quantities?

They have already sold a lot of Model 3s, and they have 16 months to sell a lot more of them. Personally I don't really care all that much about when they hit 5k/week, 6k/week, or whatever. Even if they stayed at 4k/week that is 240K cars over the next 16 months, plus however many S/X/Y models they sell in that time.

The counter argument is that the demand for the 3 will be exhausted at some point, which could well be true. But the availability of the cheaper short range Model 3 will spike demand before that happens.

EDIT: fixed broken math

Indeed, Tesla is supply constrained. The next three years of Fremont production are spoken for (reservations + demand not yet realized as a reservation).

Gotta get those production rates up to pay off bonds and amortize capex though.

Yes, Tesla's profitability is an entirely different discussion, and IMHO one that really isn't all that relevant to how it will compete with MB, VW, etc. over the next few years.

Profitability is relevant to how Tesla will do anything, including but not limited to competing with incumbent auto manufacturers, absent an infinite supply of undemanding capital.

More importantly, the legacy automakers are loosing far more money on the sales of their EV than Tesla. They can't expect to margin of their gas-guzzlers to subsidies their losses on EV for long.

>The next three years of Fremont production are spoken for

Are you sure? We did not have a reservation. We ordered a Model 3 LR AWD on July 25 and will be taking delivery by the end of September, per our delivery adviser.

I expect the >$35k model demand is drying up fast. Can Tesla run their business on 400k 35k Model 3s?

I'm really loving the simultaneous predictions that > $35k demand is drying up and complaints that the $35k car isn't shipping yet... because > $35k demand is too high.

They haven't started delivering outside US yet. Europe is planned mid 2019.

> the availability of the cheaper short range Model 3 will spike demand before that happens.

So Q1 2019. And Telsa is always on time with self declared timelines, so you know those cars will be rolling off the line by then.

>And Telsa is always on time with self declared timelines, so you know those cars will be rolling off the line by then.

Can you name one legacy automaker who reach their EV sales/production goals more accurately than Tesla over several years?

All production targets set in 2015 by Musk have been achieved/exceed so far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTbQFdyizGQ

Q1 2019 is still at least six months before MB will have a viable competitor available to purchase. Probably more like 12 months before MB has it available in quantity. Too soon to say what availability will be for the Audi and Porsche competitors. But thanks for the snark.

Tesla has a history of shipping high-margin cars for as long as they can before shipping the base model. So no, no one should expect those cars to be rolling off the line by then.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/

They sold more than 28,000 Model 3s in Q2. They're on track to deliver more than 50,000 in Q3. Will probably sell more 400,000 next year (assuming only a small improvement from the current run rate).

They'll probably exceed 80% of EV market share in the US for years to come. Legacy automakers haven't got any source of battery (the Chinese will keep their production for the Chinese market, or only sell them for high margin). We've yet to know how the traditional automakers plan to make EVs in volume (intention don't count anymore).

Panasonic, the company that actually runs Tesla's Gigafactory, has sufficient capacity to build out and manufacture car batteries for other carmakers should the demand ever arise.

And today's article is basically the announcement that...demand has arisen. Expect to see an announcement from Panasonic or one of the other major battery suppliers in the next few days about breaking ground on a new factory.

> And today's article is basically the announcement that...demand has arisen.

It has--but it's not clear the whether the demand is for EVs or for Teslas.

So here is the thing...the interior of the Tesla is not that of a car costing 100K. I expect the others you named will be. I drove a Tesla and it was cool, but I could not get past the cost vs. my previous MB or Porsche. I am hoping Porsche does an electric in the style of the Boxster, if so that is my next car. My wife is looking at the Audi or Jaguar electric to replace her Macan as the next car. I will say the current 2 cars will be the last gas powered I own.

I want to add some information to your comment that might be interesting to consider, namely Volkswagen's approach (other than a few e-Golfs). Have a look:

http://newsroom.vw.com/vehicles/the-electric-vehicle-module/

Tesla is (attempting to) scale up production to capture market share at a time when it's just not profitable to sell electric cars. If BMW says they can't yet be made at a profit, I believe them - not the guy who lives on subsidies.

Once there is profit to be had and "game on," people are going to buy from existing brands with deep manufacturing expertise, not from a hype machine that might not be in business in 5 years.

I don't know where you get the idea that electric cars are not profitable. The higher end models are obviously profitable. As for mid-range, the Munro teardown shows the model 3 as not only profitable but highly profitable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAS-yjWj9DY

"lives on subsidies"

Tesla is well below that of many other car manufacturers on receiving government subsidies. BMW has received them as well!

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