Why is flaking so widespread in San Francisco? | Hacker News Reader

Why is flaking so widespread in San Francisco?

devonzuegel.com

46 pointsluu57 comments

To be clear, the author's usage of "flaking" refers to people who "flake out" - or frequently renege or "bail out" of plans they have made with other people.

In my opinion - people who flake have a lack of self-discipline and a lack of respect for anyones time but their own.

Agreed. Inability to even consider other people’s needs is one of the worst attributes in a person.

Which takes empathy. Which a lot of people in tech don't have.

Scarily enough, the psychologist who observed the defendants at the Nuremberg Trials decided that a complete and utter lack of empathy was the defining characteristic of evil people.

It depends on culture.

See the recent article about Brazil, where it's considered rude to arrive on time, because everybody expects you to be at least one hour late.

Right. Totally get this: My folks live in the Caribbean, and "island time" is very much in effect, which means realistically expect things 2-3 hours from whatever time was agreed upon.

But that would not be flaking, just being late, no? Are there cultures where completely failing to do what you said you would is acceptable?

Similar could be said for a lot of latin countries, though you are right -- they may be late but they do show up

Thanks. The dictionary I tried didn't seem to have a definition which fit what the article was alluding to, but urbandictionary did!

I am the opposite. I find flaking acceptable and find that people who don't are intolerant. I think it's partially a cultural thing.

Don't get how you find people who meets you on time "intolerant"

To clarify, I try to avoid people who believe that flaking or being a bit late is rude. Of course, I don't mind people who are on time.

What does 'flaking' mean to you? As in making something like a dinner plan and then just never turning up? I really can't understand finding that acceptable. Are you not annoyed at the waste of time and embarrassment?

Also, the wasted money spent on any travel costs, the wasted time spent earning the money that was pointlessly spent on said travel costs, and the opportunity cost of not doing something more productive with your time and money.

Loss of the cover to the restaurant as well. And you might not get a reservation there again.

Maybe I misunderstood the meaning of flaking as I'm not a native speaker. I would consider it rude if the plan was already under way (e.g. someone started cooking, already traveled to somewhere, etc.) but canceling plans a bit ahead of time is acceptable to me.

Intolerant of allowing people to waste your time or wasting other people's time?

A better question to ask is why does SF think its some unique city where everything is different than the rest of world?

Indeed, based on the title I was hoping we would get an analysis of why flaking is more widespread in San Francisco. Instead, it's just an assumed that more people flaking in SF is true, and conjecture and anecdotes as to why that may be the case. Not a very interesting article for HN.

Having lived in SF for a few years now I would say it is very unique (not necessarily in good ways).

The weirdest thing about SF is that there are no kids.

That really depends on which part of the city you’re in, my neighborhood is a sea of strollers!

I guess, but I'm just saying walking downtown you just don't see families, kids anywhere...whereas in most other cities you see kids, families, retirees, students, workers, etc in the "public centers" of a city.

My experience is only anecdotal, but I think most city centers I've spent much time in (Austin, Houston, Tokyo) haven't had many families around during the work week either. If you go to fisherman's wharf, you'll find it crawling with families (undeniably mostly tourists), and most weekends you'll find Union Square swarmed as well.

Do you also live in Noe Valley? I'm surrounded by children and strollers on the J most days.

The real difference I've noticed with kids in this city is, compared to other places I've visited recently, the parents elsewhere acknowledge and/or comfort their kids if they are crying or signaling for attention. Here in SF it seems commonplace for parents to ignore their kids entirely and pretend they don't exist when they are screaming/crying on MUNI, running around at restaurants, or asking "hey mom, hey dad, hey mom, dad, hello?". Parents here either tune out or just don't care.

That is in no way an exclusive SF phenomenon. Shitty parents who don't care about their kids' impact on others exist everywhere. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYvYjWgPh-k&t=20

If this is not a walled garden of magic silicon culture, what exactly are we paying so much for?

IMHO, this is a more local version of National Pride, with a little bit of selection bias built in. I have never lived in a city that didn't, collectively, think it was the best at something.

I think it gets magnified in the wake of the unreal inconveniences of large metropolitan area's housing--traffic--etc. You, HAVE to think that yes, you're getting something for that inconvenience that you can't get anywhere else (whether it's true or not), otherwise, you simply wouldn't be there.

Good point.

Indeed — I chuckled when I read the headline. Here in NYC it's exactly the same.

I live in Portland and I've heard the whole "this city is colder/flakier than other cities" bit.

I’ve read articles about the same phenomenon in Seattle and people say the same thing about Tokyo.

An LA based podcast I listen to, constantly mentions the flaking problem there.

I experience flaking a fair amount here in the Denver/Boulder area as well...

It's certainly different from the Midwest. In Indianapolis or Chicago or Madison, if you don't honor the friend cancellation policy and notify your change at least 24 hours in advance, it negatively impacts your social credit score. If you flake out more than once or twice, people stop inviting you to stuff, or invite you only to events that won't fall apart if you aren't there.

For instance, if you have a standing appointment for Game Night on Wednesday, and don't show up half the time, someone else might get invited to fill your seat all the time, rather than just when you aren't there. And woe unto you if they start Axis & Allies on a night when you're out, and then don't finish it for 4 weeks.

Friends show up. If they don't do that in SF, that's just one more reason not to move there.

I also note that people in the South flake out or bail more readily than the Midwest. It's really annoying.

I'd be even more curious in an answer to the question of why you think this article tries to convey the idea that SF is special. She lives in this city, she interested in the flaking phenomena. She's said not a word about the city being special. Wouldn't it be more strange that she wrote about flaking in a different city?

> why you think this article tries to convey the idea that SF is special. She lives in this city, she interested in the flaking phenomena. She's said not a word about the city being special.

It says 'the rate of "flaking" in San Francisco is really high' - the only reasonable reading of that to me is 'really high... compared to other places'. You can only be 'high' compared to something else, and the only thing which qualifies this data point is 'in San Francisco'.

I don't think it's unreasonable that SF has an anomalously high flaking rate compared to cities in the rest of the US. I don't have data on it, but I don't think it's a statement that's so unlikely to be true that the author deserves to be shamed for making it.

Someone asked 'why you think this article tries to convey the idea that SF is special'. I pointed out where the article implies that the rate is high compared to other places. So you're not really arguing about the same thing.

Cities are actually different from one another culturally, to be fair.

LOL I don't live there, but it is pretty damn different if you've ever visited.

It has nothing to do with San Francisco. It's a generational thing that has nothing to do with SF specifically. Read this article from last year in the NYT:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/07/opinion/the-golden-age-of...

FWIW, I'm an old person and flaking wasn't as prevalent pre-cell phone. The reason is that there was no way that you could get in touch with someone if you changed your mind or if something came up, so the person would be waiting there indefinitely. Also people would have much longer patience, I would sometimes have to wait up to 1 hour for my friends to show up. Of course, the reverse of that is if someone flaked more than a couple of times, you would stop inviting them out or making plans with them, so it was a problem that dealt with itself.

I'm disappointed. I was hoping that the author would go into the structural issues with transport in the SF Bay Area.

One of the primary issues with the SF Bay Area is that it's 60 miles north-south, and getting across the SF Bay is a major undertaking, both in time and money.

Unlike cities like NYC (large and dense + a mostly functional transit system), and Boston (small and dense + a vaguely functional transit system), travel times are much more non-deterministic in the SF Bay Area, especially if plans require people from multiple locations.

Ergo, the chances of people bailing on plans because some random traffic incident will add 90 minutes to their travel time (and possibly miss most of the event) is much higher in the SF Bay Area.

It's a general trend of being always connected. The original meetup is no longer a high-priority focused event but can easily be replaced by something else in a second. It also makes sending excuses easier with a simple text so there's not much consequence for lack of commitment. This is exacerbated by making everything into a "casual" experience with respect and professionalism waning among youth.

People didn't flake as much when they had to actually call each other to make plans, and couldn't communicate further until they were actually there in person.

> This was really frustrating, because I’d taken an expensive Uber to get there on time.

The Bay Area is an expensive, slow, pain in the ass to get around. It's no wonder more people flake (if that's actually true). There's always going to be a reason not to jump into bumper to bumper traffic or pay a $100 Uber fair. Compared to NY where you can just jump on a subway and meet someone in half an hour, it's a wonder people meet up in the Bay Area casually at all.

In addition to flaking, people are highly reluctant to commit. Which is to say, they won’t say yes or no until the last minute. This is just as rude as flaking, given that many occasions require headcount for planning.

I've the feeling that this is actually a good thing, and that most flacking results from the fact that people feel pressed to say "yes" while actually they would not, and is just simpler to say "oh sorry" later. And since in US AFAIK people have hard time to just say "no" in general, they say "maybe" when they actually mean "no". They should just say "no" often and when they say "yes" do the best to attend since they really wanted to do it. But still "maybe" it's better than saying "yes" to something you don't like to do actually.

If the last minute wasn't good enough then it wouldn't be the last minute. If someone needs a headcount by a certain time, then state so and then that's the last minute - not five minutes after getting a text message.

It’s typically implicit given the nature of the event.

San Francisco is flake central for sure, but I noticed that it's largely the fakers who flake out on things. Most of the people I know running real businesses know how to keep their appointments.

I would assume there is so much to do there, particularly impromptu things, that it is a detriment to not be flexible.

> Everyone is even more connected digitally here than most other places in the world.

Someone needs to see more world.

Am I the only one who's relieved when someone flakes on me? Less human interaction ftw (of course in some scenarios it's really frustrating... but for non-urgent meetings, flaking can be a boon to win back precious time and energy).

this is a stereotype of California, not just San Francisco. people make the same observation about film industry types.

like every seemingly irrational and inefficient mode of cultural interaction, there are some benefits to it.

It's pretty brave of her actually to say that she's experienced a lot of flaking. Highly desired individuals probably don't get flaked very often, so admitting you get flaked about 50% of the time is kind of admitting that you have friends who feel like they have better things to do, which is admirable.

Oh come on, that's like saying that victims have it coming to them. The fault is on the person who flakes, and meeting a lot of people who flake is little more than bad luck.

This exchange does make me wonder how often she makes plans we people who've already previously flaked on her.

There probably are ways to minimize the risk of getting flaked on.

Engineering your life for zero flakes, is probably sub-optimal though.

Probably a better strategy is just to keep a kindle with reading you want to do with you (or something along those lines), so if you do flaked on, the time isn't a total waste.

It's only admirable to one who desires to be desirable, no? Many of us are as happy with our own company as we are with that of our family and/or friends. And for sure there's no shortage of things to do if someone blows me out.

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