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Comment by reacharavindh | Hacker News Reader

I used to work in the US as a perf engineer, and now live in Europe(Denmark). I made a conscious choice to live here despite a drastic cut in pay. Europe just does not pay anywhere near what US does. Unless this changes, majority of top tech talent will always be in the US.

Want top notch Cyber Security in Germany? Start by paying well for the engineers... then may be they want to stay.

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> Unless this changes, majority of top tech talent will always be in the US.

I think that the focus on take-home salary is very American and it doesn't necessarily transfer to other cultures. Europeans generally prefer getting home earlier from work, taking longer holidays, having maternity/paternity leave, and so on. Money is one thing, but as long as you make enough, the other things become more important. If you live in Denmark surely you have noticed this, even in the tech sector.

I'm a German who had a green card in the USA. I gave it up and moved back home to Germany. I value the European lifestyle over the American. I make less but I'm happier with being treated well.

I know some Eastern Europeans that told me they were treated like garbage in Germany, but as rockstars in the US. YMMV

> treated like garbage in Germany, but as rockstars in the US. YMMV

I think the discussion is about society in general (healthcare, education, safety, work hours, leave from work, etc. ), not about how a person is treated in their individual workplace.

People make choices based on multiple aspects, not just the political aspects you'd like to focus on.

Europeans tend to be nationalist and if you're from the "wrong" nation you feel that. In America you won't be treated with more respect if you're from Denmark and not Poland. So that's an aspect.

Such broad generalizations, its quite lacking in awareness for you to be from a country where Trump is president and still be condescending to Europeans about their nationalism/racism.

Yup, the very fabric of America changed on that awful awful day in November.

I did not communicate clear enough. I'm NOT saying life in the US is abstractly better than Europe. It is a personal choice, and I quite decided otherwise(moving to Europe from the US). It still does not change the fact that Europe generally pays less than US, and that it would be better for European companies to pay better to attract /retain top talent from the US.

You are saying that USA will always be perceived as a superior place to live because of the better pay; the guy is saying that it's not always true because some people value other things (family time, housing affordability, social security network etc), so some talent will prefer to remain/move to europe/canada etc. While I generally tend to agree with you more (unfortunately people go for the money), he has a good point. The U.S isn't for everyone.

But I do agree the pay should rise about 20% . by "should" I mean a lot of companies in Germany or Netherlands(where I'm currently at) will lose employees to Dublin/London where salaries are much higher.

This comparison is very complex. You cannot just compare European wages with US wages [1].

For one, the cost of living is going to depend on where you live. Which country, which city, which town. And you cannot just compare the costs. Each person has different values. Some prefer to live in a village, other in an apartment in a city. Some are cool with 1500 EUR rent a month, some find that ridiculous. Some can't stand the smog, others don't mind. If you live in a village the value of a car increases, while in a city the public transport system is invaluable. Each has their + and -, beyond just the cost of living, and how important these values are is also going to differ.

On top of that you get healthcare in Europe, even if you end up sacked. You pay more tax in Europe, but this also gives you more social security. Then there's state pensions.

In the USA the native language is English, and its settled on that. In Europe, this isn't the case (though it is in Amsterdam) with e.g. the stoic French and Germans. Not even the EUR is the main currency in whole of EU.

[1] I suppose we'd need some kind of statistical analysis.

True that I generalized too much. But, I did so for brevity of my point. Comparing EU salaries with US is not apples to apples. Because EU has different cost of living regions & benefits vs similar differences in US. However, as a personal anecdote from someone who moved from SouthEast USA(Raleigh, NC) which I consider as neither too high end like Bay Area nor too low like somewhere in Montana to Denmark, which is rather higher cost example within Europe, I see a big difference in the money I can retain every month after my expenses. Admittedly, I did not count healthcare costs because it was covered almost entirely by my employer in the US. Here, the Danish government does from my taxes..

If I were a young new graduate tech engineer with aspirations of being among the best, and getting paid well, from anywhere in Europe, it seems almost 90% logical to look at moving to US. Cultural, political and family reasons to stay in Europe is a different story.

I have a friend in DK, who bluntly said that "he will not consider the US in the argument because of Trump, and the society that would elect an idiot like him". People have different priorities at the end of the day. But, money wise, it is still the US of A...

I think you are undervaluing a lot the benefits of the European culture [1].

It's just not health care, it's also the safety of not being spontaneously fired, the work-life balance, the vacation time, the paternity leave, and so on.

[1] I know that the mileage can vary from country to country.

I didn't mean to undervalue the benefits. I need to communicate better. I only intended to state a part of the argument that US generally pays substantially more than Europe. There are many (including myself) that choose to stay in Europe in-spite of it, valuing other benefits such as (better healthcare, work-life balance, education, involved society, gun control etc). It still does not change the fact that US pays better, and that it would be better for Europe to do so as well if they want to attract top Engineers aways from US...

I've considered moving to the US before and have had a couple of offers in the last few years.

There lots of reasons I wouldn't want to live in the US that the increased Valley-area pay wouldn't make up for for me, personally.

How are you looking for jobs in the U.S ? I find the whole process daunting (especially not knowing if you win some visa lottery, and the fact my wife won't be able to work there).

When I was an young new graduate I did consider moving into US, even got some interviews, thankfully I decided to stay in Europe.

There is no amount of money that would cover what I would be loosing in vacations, job safety, unions that actually work on IT, paternity leave, healthcare, ....

Plus I got to become fluent in 6 languages, and basic knowledge in a few others.

You, and others, gave additional reasons why the comparison goes moot.

You're the reason why I said "almost" :-)

I don't think the majority thinks this way when they first build their career and look for places..

I'm heavily inspired by your learning 6 languages! I'm learning Danish as my first foreign language as an adult, and damn is it a struggle...

The option to move to the U.S is given only to a selected few who somehow got relocated by their employer or won a visa lottery. And even if everything went fine, if you are married your spouse probably won't be able to work in the U.S. There's plenty of talent in Europe who wouldn't even consider the US simply because of the hellish bureaucracy. So I really doubt that the best and brightest all 100% flock to the U.S from Europe.

In the USA, if you do have a specialisation you can profit from then you're middle class pronto but if something happens with you, if you get unemployed or drama in your life you are toast. EU is less risk/less reward, and that contradicts a startup culture at its core which is high risk/high reward. However that doesn't mean EU has no risk/reward or effort/reward; it has.

That friend from DK likely has rather opposite values of Trump's and is afraid for a society where approx 50% of the people would vote for Trump. But if you look into it, and speak to Trump voters, that's when you start to develop sympathy and empathy for their background, stories, and reasoning. Its important to listen to people, and try to understand them. We can learn so much from that, but it requires patience, time/effort, and getting out of your bubble. I've seen a very good TV series on this subject [1] by an American-born American-Dutch (Jewish, Czech) presentator Eva Jinek but it is unfortunately with Dutch voiceover/subs.

I come up today with another reason (healthcare example) of why I would prefer EU over US [2]. Examples like these I stumble upon every once in a while, and they make the comparison more and more difficult; not easier. Because income is tangible, but these examples are not.

[1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Verenigde_Staten_van_Eva

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17877651

In Amsterdam, you kinda have to learn the language to live for real with locals (though many stay years there and don't).

Compare contractor pay with US. Contractors have to pay their own taxes, health insurance etc.

I suspect that's true in a lot of places. I moved to Finland, and while I didn't speak Finnish I managed to buy a pair of flats, get my brain-scanned (!), and deal with the local tax-offices.

So everyday life is was just fine, people dealt with me in English. But to integrate, to have local friends, and to really be a part of the country I know I have to learn Finnish. (Which I'm slowly doing.)

They don't have to pay well compared to the US. They have to pay well compared to rest of Europe / Germany.

I know more European devs who live and work in the Bay Area than I know Americans who live and work in the Netherlands. And I'm in the Netherlands!

There's clearly more people being drawn to SV than away from it. I bet salary is a major component.

I fully agree with the GP. European tech bigco's need to get their shit together and pay competitively.

Yes, but is enough for them to compete with people who want to stay here.

As a German engineer, I always shiver at those "I went to hospital, the doctor turned out to be out-network and now I'm in debt for the rest of my life" discussions at HN. Maybe the pay offsets that somewhat, but if I have to be honest: The US don't really strike me as that attractive once I consider the whole package (of course SV is probably nice to live/work).

But universities usually pay worse than the local industry anyway, so yeah, if they want the top people, they should start to pay (local) top salaries. Instead, as a researcher you might find yourself living from 6 month contract to 6 month contract.

I lived in the US for 5 years and came back to Europe. Money isn't everything.

> As a German engineer, I always shiver at those "I went to hospital, the doctor turned out to be out-network and now I'm in debt for the rest of my life" discussions at HN.

You're proving his point: all the risk-averse folks stay in Germany. The rest are in the bay area.

this is a very poor point. People who want to take risks prefer to take additional risks which can be prevented by cooperating with other people through a social security system?

Also, your health is not a calculated risk. Having a poor health (sometimes) just happens, even if your lifestyle is healthy.

This also ignores the massive social problems that are taken for granted in the US because of its non existant healthcare system for the poor.

People who like to take risks very rarely enjoy the kind of straight-jacket social environment you find in Western European societies. Therefore, they leave for greener pastures.

Government mandated social security is an extremely inefficient way of managing health care. As an added evil it puts a giant drag on how fast companies can move.

But in Europe, try to dare to even mention the idea that centralized government mandated social security is terrible and you're immediately ignored because people think you're an immoral person. And social metrics be damned.

Just another example of Europeans living withing the confines of carefully built and maintained mental prisons.

>Government mandated social security is an extremely inefficient way of managing health care.

Yeah, just look how efficient the US healthcare system is: https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/tot...

I'm not exactly risk-averse - but thomas112 correctly deduced that I don't want to live in a society that basically says "f..k the poor". Also plenty of people with whom I studied are taking financial and career risks instead of going the "9 to 5 family life and happily ever after" route while staying in Europe. If you run a successful company here you can still make a lot of money ;-)

I'm a German engineer in the US. The thing with these stories is that they won't happen to you. If you're employed by a tech company you have great health insurance.

Of course, it still sucks that it can happen to someone at all and you might not want to live in such a society. That's a separate issue.

Speaking of SV, I think the cost of living and the social problems there have made it increasingly unattractive. Seattle is nice.

>The thing with these stories is that they won't happen to you.

> If you're employed by a tech company you have great health insurance.

So it will happen to you if you are laid off and happen to become sick after that?

On your layoff papers you check the "sign up for COBRA insurance" box and go on with your life

Also change politics. The BND has now pretty much the same damaging image as the CIA, as the last resort for the old fascists, actively supporting Nazis and treating non-violent antifascists (ie democrats) as potential violent terrorists. Nobody wants to work in such an environment, esp. under Seehofer. The cited green party member was completely right. See also Sascha Lobos comment https://www.google.de/amp/www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpoliti...

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