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Comment by rudolfwinestock | Hacker News Reader

No, it's not. It's Communism.

Granted, the difference isn't much in terms of human rights.

I don't have the reference handy, but I remember reading about a priest who had the dubious distinction of having survived both a Nazi concentration camp as well as a Communist concentration camp. In his opinion, the Communist camp was worse. In addition to the hard labor, other physical hardships, and the ever-present threat of death, the Communists added brainwashing. “At least the Germans didn't try turning you into a Nazi.”

Don't forget. Cuba and Vietnam have the same system in operation. Ask anyone in the exile communities in the United States.

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The fact this is downvoted is proof of the historical illiteracy of Hacker News readers.

> Cuba and Vietnam have the same system in operation. Ask anyone in the exile communities in the United States.

There's a huge selection bias in asking emigrants or exiles or refugees or whatever you prefer to call them. If you are a militant Marxist-Leninist in Cuba you probably don't want to leave.

> If you are a militant Marxist-Leninist in Cuba

You say this as if that is a voluntary, natural outcome for citizens in these countries... they grow up hearing their governments blame every problem (their gov created) on the west, while bad news coming out of the West is promoted widely to convince the public that capitalism is backwards.

So while I'm sure there are some intellectuals who are legitimate marxists in Cuba, I doubt the average working class person knows the difference. If they were given the option of the wealth of the average American (or even Mexican) or the cuban one I bet they'd chose the US in a second over the rampant poverty in Cuba.

The people in exile have seen what the alternatives are. They are better informed, it can't all be dismissed as bias. If anything they should have less bias than a Cuban who has never left that bubble.

And if you ever visit the non-tourist parts of Cuba it's incredibly depressing what socialism has done to them.

I'm sorry but it is completely legitimate for Cuba to blame the west (mostly the US) for problems the west created for them in trying to force Cuba to change its governments political ideology.

The idea that all Cuban citizens are brainwashed applies also to US citizens. US citizens are also indoctrinated to believe that capitalism is the only way from when they are toddlers.

The Cuban immigrant's bias should at least be taken into account, you are selecting a group of people to interview who left Cuba because they hated the government. Of course they are going to say bad things about that same government.

"And if you ever visit the non-tourist parts of Cuba it's incredibly depressing what socialism has done to them". Socialism has done great things for the people of Cuba considering the constraints they have had put on them by the west. The government has massively increased the average Cubans literacy, improved working conditions conditions and instituted high quality free medical care making it so that wealth isn't the deciding factor on how long you live.

Cuba would be far worse in an alternative reality where Batista stayed in power.

The fact that you are being downvoted for this is such a perfect proof of what you're saying, ironically.

It would be nice if someone at least addressed it.

Have you been to Cuba? That was not my experience there at all.

I would never make such a statement without having been there.

I spent quite a lot of time walking in non-tourist areas, particularly small towns with dirt roads. I met a few locals on different occasions and visited their poorly built houses with no A/C, insects walking everywhere as the door was open to let the wind in, and pipes leaking.

The stores are also severely limited in supply and prices were high for everything.

The people were clearly depressed, which was apparent undertone even as they feigned niceness to the foreigners.

I'm honestly shocked at people with a clear ideological agenda who try to pretend like their economic experiment wasn't a complete failure.

Other parts of latin america and caribbean might be poor but Cuba could have done so much better. You can tell they are a strong-willed industrious people who work hard.

What you're describing sounds like the experience in any developing country. You haven't given any evidence that it's due to socialism. (Though comparing to my experiences in developing capitalist countries I would say Cuba has a very different economic 'feeling' to it, which I would argue is superior for the level of material development.)

> Other parts of latin america and caribbean might be poor but Cuba could have done so much better. You can tell they are a strong-willed industrious people who work hard.

Wait so if they had capitalism the Cuban economy would be better than other poor Latin American economies because they work harder? At least you're not making the classic disingenuous comparison between the economic development of imperialist superpowers and socialist nations that started off poor...

How does this have anything to do with Communism?

The Chinese Communist Party has the word "Communist" in its name, but it has nothing to do with Communism.

Communists historically seem to be big on re-education camps. The first ones that spring to mind are in the USSR, post-war Vietnam, and these ones currently in China. Have there been many re-education camps in capitalist societies?

They're called prisons over here (the US), and we have privatized some of them to generate profit, too. We have the largest incarcerated population in the world -- not even by per capita. Additionally, the 13th amendment makes slavery legal for the incarcerated, and many states take away the right for the incarcerated/felons/ex-felons to vote.

There is actually a huge nation-wide prison strike currently going on (of course, not even mentioned in popular news) right now that you might find interesting -- check out their list of demands. California only just recently abolished the ability to buy yourself out of jail - cash bail.

Are you saying US prisons are "re-education" camps or are you just taking the opportunity to bring up some popular social issues in a weakly relevant "what-about-ism".

His point is obvious, clear, and inarguable. If you can’t grasp it that’s on you.

> His point is obvious, clear, and inarguable. If you can’t grasp it that’s on you.

His point is definitely arguable and not at all obvious or clear: it rests on conflating prisons with political re-education camps. The two things obviously have similarities, but they also have important differences.

how important are the differences really?

whether you are in a Chinese prison or a US prison does it really matter which injust, ridiculous, hypocritical system put you there? does it really matter what kind of grandiose intellectual contortions your captors use to justify their behavior towards you? if you are being raped or beaten or worked until you bleed do you really care what language they are using to scream at you while they do it? does your family, who doesnt know where you are, and wont see you for years, care what flag is flown over the walls that enclose you?

> how important are the differences really?

The differences are very important. In one, the prisoners are ideally a threat to the members of their society in some way: rapists, con artists, thieves. In the other, the prisoners are only a threat to or a scapegoat for the already-powerful rulers: intellectuals, dissidents, minorities.

> whether you are in a Chinese prison or a US prison does it really matter which injust, ridiculous, hypocritical system put you there?

Yes it does, because they're not "injust, ridiculous, hypocritical" to anywhere near the same degree.

If US prisons are equivalent to Chinese re-education camps, what is the equivalent of Chinese prisons in the US?

Which historical communists? You are replying to someone who points out the difference between an ideologue and a self-proclaimed ideologue, by referring to ... a list of self-proclaimed communist governments.

You're right - there have never been any communist re-education camps, because True Communism has never existed.

No true Scotsman.

true "communism" as a demand or requirement or ideology has existed for a long time, but I agree it has never been attained.

Every concept or value that is in substantial demand will be abused to justify the most horrible things for power and profit. This is true for desirable traits or ideologies of systems such as: freedom, egalitarianism, democracy, anarchism ...

From the perspective of crook/opressor/... take your plan, and slap on it whatever concept is in vogue at the timme and place you find yourself...

When did I change the definition of "communism" in an "ad hoc" sense? The "No True Scotsman" trope requires the person commiting the fallacy to change or revert his definition in some ad hoc sense...

Exactly they use ideas that may have a base in communism but if you‘ve ever taken the effort in reading what real communism means you‘d know China is no communist state.

It is a mix of several political ideas and capitalism is also a big part of it - it’s the part that leads other nations to produce goods at the cheapest rate there so they can say they’ve done everything they could to save the workers human rights.

The truth is that companies like Apple etc very well know that people there are treated like slaves - but profit is more important than human lives...

>No, it's not. It's Communism.

Well it isn't that either. Let's be clear that it's a concentration camp run by Chinese Communists with 'added brainwashing' as you put it.

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