For $450, a Japanese Company Will Quit Your Job for You
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BTW, generally, people are less likely to pull off shit like that if you motivate your resignation with some health/moving/whatever external factors. Just shift the focus way from "I don't want to work with you assholes" to "my wife got reassigned to %STATENAME%, so I guess I have to follow" or whatever sounds plausible and you're good to go.
I also offered to work from home for my final two weeks, to help them train my replacement, but it had to be from home, because of the pooping issue.
What's really nice is that I had a ton of options. I could even apply to have my job back, if I couldn't find remote work, in a few months if I had success with the treatment and felt more comfortable in an office environment.
Second, you give the compliment sandwich. You start out with thanking them for the opportunity (any job is an opportunity, no matter how shitty it was, you made money and you learned something, sadder but wiser you may be). Then you tell them you would wish to quit your job after the contractual resignation period. Don't neglect mentioning that! If you just say you want to resign, they might just accept your immediate resignation and you'll miss out on the period you might have planned on. The final compliment has to make sure you'll be able to work together through the final period, just assure them you'll keep up your efforts and help transfer your knowledge to colleagues.
I'll do it for you for $450 if your employers speak English or Dutch ;)
It is often somewhat difficult in Japan to get your legal entitlement when leaving a so called "black" company. They might not easily pay out your remaining holiday, or they might use "power harassment" to otherwise make your exit process difficult.
So I can see that a company like this, while not providing legal services, removes the possibility of applying harassment to coerce employees to stay a bit longer or not take their full legal entitlement.
Actually... thinking back I've literally had an ex-boss in Japan try to get me to sign releases to various things. In the end I paid a lawyer to tell the guy to stop harassing me. This service would have been cheaper...
You're making an assumption here: that one is leaving for amicable reasons (e.g., a better paying job elsewhere, a new career path, going back to school, etc.). There's another mindset that this sort of company is perfect for: "I don't give a hoot about my soon-to-be-ex-employer, I just want out."
In that case, a company like this might even be the better means of quitting -- as the saying goes, "if you don't have anything nice to say, say nothing at all." This company provides (IMO) a valuable ways of communicating without having to get personal feelings involved (at least for the departing employee).
And the world is a small place -- exiting right can help you in the future, even if you think you will never work with that company again. My 2c.
Not always, and especially for those that don't "think on their feet". I'm one of those, and I prefer writing, simply because I can make sure I've said everything I want to say in the exact way that I want to say it. I get flustered when put on the spot, and sometimes say what I don't mean, or say what I do mean but ambiguously.
Point is, people are different, so face to face cannot always be best.
I can't begin to tell you how utterly distasteful, unprofessional, and pretty shocking this I find this considering I work in a field full of nerds.
I have no qualms about leaving workplaces with toxic cultures like this (about 90% in Chicago). I have no desire to recommend or be recommended by people who's idea of bonding is forming a clique of bullies, find job security in doing as little training and professional development for new employees as they can get away with, and excuse their own poor performance by drinking until they can't remember their own name.
My work speaks for itself and has been enough to get me in the door wherever I want to go at the salaray I deserve.
I've heard this called the shit sandwich. Good news, bad news, good news. Helps to break unpleasant news in all kinds of situations.
There are plenty of ways to deliver negative feedback with empathy, in a non-hurtful way. This, however, isn't one of them.
Contrast: I think the functionality of the application is very useful. The UI is really lacking, especially when doing X, Y and Z. I really like the Q feature it would save me some time.
With: The UI sucks.
"The UI sucks" is not that. Neither is the shit sandwich - it tells me that there are issues with XYZ, but it's buried in unrelated information. Are you saying that the app is helpful? That you want Q? Or that you want XYZ fixed? And if you want XYZ fixed, why are you burying it?
"Hey, we have a couple of issues with XYZ. I know, you're currently looking at something else, but if we don't fix them, we'll cause problems for $USER_GROUP". Clear communication of the problem, that you're aware of the impact it has on the person, and why it's important to address the problem.
I always do this and I've maintained cordial relations with former employers.
From that, people who have a job in Japan often feel obligated as in "You gave my a job and made it possible to live my life. You invested N years in training me. I'm now responsible for various parts of your business. If I leave it will feel like not paying you back for all you've given me. It will also put you out for weeks to months.".
Japanese have an acute sense of obligation as well. There's a reason why you say "Don't worry this is really nothing" when you give a gift in Japan as you're trying to avoid adding to the receiver's obligation to reciprocate.
Of course as a westerner that attitude used to bug the crap out of me. I knew a person who wanted to quit, their boss said "no, you can't quit", and they stayed on for several more months. At some point in my life my attitude would have probably been something along the lines of "If it's that important I stick around what's it worth to you?"
The longer I'm in Japan the more I'm mellowing on some of my western and spoiled engineer attitudes. Of course not totally but I feel like the it's "me vs them" attitude I see so much on HN leads to worse outcomes than the "we're all in this together" attitude or the "it takes a village" attitude I see more of in Japan. I think both extremes are bad but if my meter was pointing at the 100% me side before it's now around the 75% me side, 25% us side, now.
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> The longer I'm in Japan the more I'm mellowing on some of my western and spoiled engineer attitudes.
Could this all plausibly be explained simply by buyer's market vs sellers's market for the respective jobs? I mean: if there exist far less good programmers than demand for them on the market, employees will easily become entitled (side story: for example in Germany, the job market for programmers is very different from what I read about the situation in the Silicon Valley on HN). On the other hand, if employers have lots of potential employees to choose from, the power dynamics is entirely different.
[...]
> I feel like the it's "me vs them" attitude I see so much on HN leads to worse outcomes
I think your anecdote there proves otherwise. That person was asked to act against their own interest and did it out of feebleness. They didn't gain anything in return, it was not a equitable exchange where e.g the boss paid out an additional bonus for the employee continuing to stay against their wish.
In a capitalist society, it is always workers vs employers. Do not mistake Japan's social cohesion for some kind of workplace utopia. It is one of the worst countries on earth in terms of work life balance - which is currently destroying their entire society as childbirth rates plummet. This is not hyperbole. By 2030 years ~85% of the population will be elderly people.
Because by 2030 there will certainly NOT be 85% of the population as elderly (well except if some new sickness kills all the people below 65 obviously).
There might be 35% though, which is already quite high but not unmanageable.
Either way, japan's population is not only ageing but declining at an exponential rate due to low childbirth - which has been directly attributed to the piss poor work life balance. The Japan as we know it today will not exist in a few decades. It will either be a far less populous country, or full of immigrants.
So I don't think we can take their 'not us vs them' attitude in the workplace as any kind of precursor for a successful or happy society.
Maybe this will make it clearer? Let's say you do a contract for $1000. As the contract progresses they promote you to fellow business people. "This guy's great. You should contract him for your needs". At the end of the contract you get paid the $1000. You're then asked, "hey, could you print 1 extra copy of that report"
Possible responses
1. Sure, That will be $50
2. Sure, on problem. Here you go.
Probably a bad example but I'd argue that (1) is the "me" attitude and (2) is the "us" attitude. They gave you free PR. I guess they should have been "Oh, you want me to tell me business contacts about you? Give me 10% for each successful contract".
I want to live in world (1) where people help each other unless it's total unreasonable.. Staying extra months at the company could arguably be unreasonable but it's also possible to feel obligation. You don't know how much training that employee received or what else they got from the relationship.
As another example, some company could hire you with zero experience (taking a chance). You'd applied to 25 places but everyone said "no experience no hire". You work at this company and mostly they get very little good work out of you because they're giving you so much training. Not only are you slower than the experienced people but those experienced people have to spend time explaining better ways to do things to you, time they could be spending directly on their other responsibilities.
At the end of year you now have "experience" so you ditch the company for another job. Some people would see that as close to theft. You just took a free paid education from them when they were hoping the deal was they'd train you, even paying you while you're being trained vs you having to pay a school to train you, and then they expected you to be a productive employee for at least a year or two after the training.
Would you seriously feel zero obligation?
From the site linked in the article, "Proper Etiquette for Quitting Your Job in Japan":
Show your appreciation to every member of the company, or at least those you have been working with directly. Sweets, small gifts such as mugs, tea sets, a thank-you card or other similar items will be appreciated by everyone. Prepare those for your last day on the job. Usually, Japanese companies will see you off by hosting a small party and presenting you with a flower bouquet, so having something to give in return always makes a good impression. You may also be asked to give a speech, so prepare a few farewell words just in case—but keep it short and sweet.
Skipping these niceties in order to save embarrassment makes the world a little colder.
For a person who spent a lifetime at the firm (which used to be pretty common in Japan) and is retiring from work altogether, they may be a warm touch. For someone who hates the job and wants to leave, maybe not so much. Not burning bridges is always a good idea, but I can understand avoiding long, scripted performances in this case.
It isn't about being nice though - it's about giving the appearance of nice. If everyone is being nice and courteous to one another for the sake of group harmony, then I think it is good. I can understand why many people would be irritated by it, but then this kind of culture isn't for them.
I visit Japan often and I'm aware of just how much of the culture is a "bullshit front". That's not surprising when an important concept is around being two-faced[0]. If this type of culture bothers you - it's a terrible country to live in. But the constant "faking for group harmony" leads to actual group harmony as far as I can tell. It's enjoyable being in a culture where people try to support one another than one that's an individualistic - "everyone fend for themselves" - culture like the U.S.A.
When I visited there the first time I thought wow everyone is so friendly and the customer service is great!
But the more I visited and spoke with my friends who live there, realize that a lot of it is just to put up a face because that is what society there requires them to do.
On a personal level it is quite sad in a way, but I also wish the customer service would be like that everywhere else in the world.
It's while I'll never leave my US state where courtesy is built into the local culture even when you're having a bad day. I'd rather be surrounded by people at a minimum respecting the idea we're all stuck here together than a bunch of grouses letting everyone know how unhappy they are, thus making everyone share their misery.
Not that I mind, they're a miracle of a country, based on what they appear to have accomplished in the last half-century or so. Compare that to most other war-torn places or places that have struggled in the past, and maybe you could posit that there is something intrinsically good/effective about their culture. And this particular facet might just be that thing.
If your personal and public personas are at ends with one another, in a society where you're almost always required to put on your "public persona", you're going to be unhappy all the time. You can choose to withdraw from society so you no longer need to fake a public persona - but even that is very difficult and can make people unhappy (using the old "we're meant to be social animals" excuse).
I think the culture works for people who's personal and public personas are mostly in agreement with one another and people who have made peace with setting their own selves aside for "the greater good" (if "societal harmony" is an acceptable "greater good", which I personally feel it is).
All in my own opinion of course. I don't have data on hand to support any of my claims. :)
Or maybe in the West, with cultural roots in Christianity, which strongly discourages suicide, we might just be benefiting from more social taboo around it.
Suicide becomes a pretty attractive option when your brain isn't working from lack of sleep, and all you're looking forward to is a lifetime of 80-100 hour work weeks.
As long as we remember and push against this false "fend for themselves", it need not become America.
Most of the team only learned that I was leaving on my last week (I had given 3 weeks notice). I just felt really awkward telling them for some unknown reason. Funnily enough, I worked in a coworking space, and most other people in the space knew I was leaving before my coworkers. My coworkers only found out because they put my leaving party on the "this week" board in the kitchen.
Quitting a job is like leaving a party. You probably didn't like everyone there. You probably avoided some people. That's where the Irish Goodbye shines. You get to leave without having to decide who to say goodbye to, and avoid long winded and shallow well wishes. As long as you aren't burning bridges, it actually benefits both sides in a lot of ways to just ghost on coworkers.
It also benefits you, more than you know.
I've been very lucky to never have a boss or team that I didn't feel that way about.
As for keeping a personal relationship, giving two weeks to maintain friendly relationships with a manager is just something weve all decide to do for seemingly no reason. Unless you work in a no skill job, you are not going to be replaced in 2 weeks. You are also not going to be able get an actual knowledge transfer done in two weeks unless your team had already done this before you quit, in which case the notice period doesn't matter anyway.
The two weeks notice period just let's companies get another two weeks of work from you, at a job you have explicitly decided you dont want to stay at
It's not just your manager, it's your coworkers, it's your team. You don't want to leave them hanging at a critical juncture with no time to find a replacement. It's not for no reason, it's because relationships matter, more than you know, and it pays a lot of dividends to invest in long-lasting relationships that carry on even beyond your job.
I get the concept of not burning bridges, but you gotta ask if the bridge is gonna take you somewhere you want to go
Edit: Additionally, every job I've worked at in my career has wanted me to start ASAP. I've even had one explicitly ask me if I could give my previous employer less notice so I could start earlier
People that resign may or may not be allowed to stay for the two weeks, depending on how much the company was relying on them (often the companies didn't really have much redundancy or documentation in place and needed to train someone new and/or do a few meetings with infodumps with these people)
But that's the only 'courtesy' I've ever seen.
E.G:
Put your bad next to a person and leave. A thief comes and steal the bag. You have a low change of the person to protect your bag.
Do the same, but just ask quickly if the person can keep an eye on the bag. You now have a much higher change that the person will protect it. The risks are the same for the person, and the gains are still zero, but they committed.
This have plenty of application in sales, politics, etc.
For a very fun ride about this, read "Small Treatise About Manipulation for Honest People ". It explains very well how we trick ourselves into taking weird decisions because of commitments.
I would pay pretty good money to terminate one of my previous employers.
If you are on H1B, quitting can be even more challenging. Some companies that sponsor your visa from India wants you to serve a 3-12 months notice period. You cannot quit from US, you have to come back to India and quit. Otherwise, you have to pay several lakhs of rupees to the company. Its not just Indian companies, some US companies who are top in what they do in the world also do this.
I have been wanting to quit my current job working for the US division of an Indian IT company for a while now, but the thought of having the talk with my manager makes me anxious. Same manager threatened me last time with service letter, and he got what he wanted.
No letter is required here for the job, but references are. Just names and phone numbers of mates you worked with, checks are done on personal level, not through HR.
Second time happened when I was in US. They were forcing me to go back to India, and I found another job. Went in to quit and the manager indirectly told me that I may face issues with my service letter. I ended up not quitting because of all the stress and uncertainties.
We need this service letter for finding new jobs in India, and may also be needed if applying for green card.
Once we sign this bond, we have to accept whatever salary they offer for our onsite assignment (deputation to US). People won't even know their US salary until 1 or 2 days before travel. Then come to US and work for them for the bond period doing whatever they tell us to do. If we were to quit during this time for another job in US, HR can treat us as "absconding" and refuse to give the service letter unless we either pay the bond amount or come back to India and serve whatever notice period is on the bond.
I would imagine a signing bonus would be handy to pay off the bond. In IT it's fairly common to get signing bonuses.
That is messed up. Why is that "service letter" that valuable?
On a side note, as an H1B holder, I am really happy with a current administration's crackdown on work visa abuse. Companies like yours seriously need to be dealt with.
Did once have to give it to my boss's boss though because it was an unexpected snow day and we were 2/3 of the people in the office!
Customs, much like words, lose their meaning when taken out of the cultural context.
The ideal is that you use things like exit interviews as a canvas on which to have a broader discussion about both career and business priorities that will leave them very interested in bringing you back on in an expanded capacity once you've grown in your career more.
This requires the ability to clearly understand and distill why you couldn't get what you needed out of your current job. Nobody's really expecting you to be unhappy, but at the same time, there's a kind of expectation that you raise issues and work them out before they reach the point where you go find another job.
Naturally, something like compensation isn't part of this expectation, if another company is offering you $30k more, you won't be expected to have asked for that before handing in your notice, because obviously you weren't going to get it. But if compensation is the primary reason you're leaving, then rationally speaking, you should be open to accepting a counter-offer. If you're not open to that, then you need to clarify more reasons why you're leaving.
My understanding is that it's best to tie what you want and why you couldn't get it to the business model of the company. That offers the least-offensive pathway through an exit interview that results in no legal issues and the utmost in professional candor. They can't change the business model, so another job is a perfectly appropriate pathway to getting what you want. This naturally requires you to understand the company's biz model and this is best accomplished by having discussions with your manager.
If you want career advancement, doing it through your current job requires you to wait for an opportunity to open up. I would have happily stayed at my last job if I could have led a team, but that wasn't in the cards. But it was an option that we explored.
If you have a personal problem with someone working there, then the expected resolution is to restructure the teams so you don't have any interaction with them. This one is a bit tricky, I wouldn't bring it up in an exit interview, but behind closed doors long before you start looking. This way you can simply hint at it in the interview and everyone knows what you mean without having to actually discuss it, while the surface discussion is about business priorities. A personal problem affects team cohesiveness though, and if management isn't willing to resolve them, then that points to a political problem with the organization.
Anyway, I hope this offers some frameworks and tools to help with career management.
At the big companies I've worked at, this would be unheard of: they always had nice going-away parties etc. They even had going-away parties when people transferred to another department.
In Canada its much more open. Everyone knows, you give more 4-2 weeks depending on how senior you are. Usually there is gift-giving/going for lunch/etc.
My favorite method of quiting is the following: I enter the manager's office, I say, "I quit" (signing any documents required), then I leave and they never see me again.