Hacker News Reader

I get what you're saying... but what's the available context of "No means No"?

It's specifically a slogan about sexual assault.

So when you modify that statement to "No doesn't necessarily mean No" you're making a play on words associated specifically with a PSA slogan about rape.

It could be a casual coincidence I suppose, or you could add further context like in the examples you supplied, but on it's own there's really no other way to see it. Sure, while the underlying principle may hold true; be persistent, don't give up too easily, etc., there are plenty of different ways to convey that and specifically choosing this wording seems deliberate.

I suppose it would come down to whether the statement was delivered as a joke in an attempt to get laughs or simply some folks found it funny. Based on the story seems more like the former.

Either way seems like they eventually developed an approach to dealing with culture fit (or lack thereof):

https://www.businessinsider.com/riot-games-pays-employees-25...

It's older than just "a slogan about sexual assault".

"No means No!" is a common parenting phrase to teach kids when a parent says "no", they mean it. If you asked for an ice-cream, and I said no, then stop asking again!

I have no data on the origins on the phrase in English as such, but certainly the concept has been around even back to the 1st Century - with the Phrase "let your yes mean yes, and your no mean no, everything else comes from the evil one" back in Matthew's gospel (5:37).

You have to go by what it means today. The meaning of phrases (especially implied meanings) changes based on what happens. At one time, "gay" just meant happy, and 9/11 was just another date.

I think it's fair to say it's in a transitional phase at worst and while it would be ideal to avoid one cannot assume the connotation in every single use.

"No means no" is also currently a common parenting phrase to teach kids about what to say if someone is touching them in inappropriate ways.

In the context of sales, you can have a conversation about perseverance and not taking no for an answer. However:

> At the end of that example, Brandon laughed and said, “I was about to say something.” He paused, and then went on to say, “No doesn’t necessarily mean no.”

Brandon _changed_ the context into something offensive and then made the joke. This was an attempt at rape joke. He even prepped the audience for it by laughing and saying, "I wasn't going to say this, but..."

This is the crucial detail here. In a vacuum this is innocuous, but Beck specifically went and gave a nod to the context he wanted you to see it in, and that context was rape.

I get what you're saying, but if someone says "the way you phrased that really bothers me because it sounds like a rape joke", I think the best response is to say "sorry, I didn't mean it that way, let's find a better way to phrase that", not "no, it's not a rape joke and you shouldn't be upset."

Hearing "no doesn't necessarily mean no" as a play on "no means no" is not some insane unreasonable interpretation, and "no means no" has been pretty consistently used as an anti-rape slogan for ages.

And maybe that phrase has been used that way in sales for ages, but the commonly accepted language has changed over time and will continue to change in response to changes in culture.

Responding as "sorry, I didn't mean it that way" if you really didn't mean it that way requires you to say "sorry" and thus take responsibility for an offense that was not committed. Obviously if you prefer to say it that way, maybe because your personality is leaned towards the conflict-avoidance side, sure. But not everybody wants to be held culpable for something they didn't do and don't want to say it that way. If you really meant no harm, then you shouldn't lose cred for simply responding "it wasn't a rape joke" and expecting to be taken at your word.

It actually doesn't. "I'm sorry your mother is sick", in no way claims responsibility for making your mother sick. It simply shows empathy toward how the other person is feeling.

Even if it did, communication is a two way street. You can't accept even the slightest bit of responsibility for not considering how your words might affect other people? I apologize when I bump into someone in the hallway. Doesn't mean I was out to get them, or it's all my fault, just that I was part of this interaction.

Okay, if it really bothers you that much, omit the "sorry" and say the rest of the sentence. Sheesh.

Yes! Exactly. Intent and the meaning of what you say is important, sure, but equally if not more important is the effect and interpretation other people have upon hearing it. If you say X and others hear Y, if your goal is to communicate in an efficient and respectful manner, then the clarity of Your own words is Your problem.

I think the biggest issue was the response from corporate. They specifically said "this is edgy" and "this is just our sense of humour".

As a sales slogan "no doesn't necessarily mean no" isn't a joke and certainly wouldn't be played for laughs. Clearly the context was different here.

The problem is they intentionally turned it into a rape joke in a social setting where very aggressive sexual language was the norm.

I suspect there is a deeper issue that doesn't get talked about that is rooted in not only traditional gender roles, but, probably to some extent, gendered psychology. And I imagine it would be all kinds of drama to even try to describe it.

So I think it gets into some very sensitive territory that is essentially of the "unspeakable" variety, and that's why it is such a hot button.

But as someone whose read some negotiating books, etc, yes, you are correct that deals take work to broker and persistence is required in such things. But it also matters how you handle it. It matters a whole lot. And in sales you know they can say no and you need to work at getting a yes. A certain type of man doesn't really feel they need to genuinely respect a woman and they feel entitled to use rather ugly tactics to try to get what they want. People have very good reason to not want to give such men additional justification for their awful behavior.

So the issue here is not with the sentiment, but the fact that the slogan “no doesn’t mean no” is _very_clearly_ a play on the anti-rape slogan “no means no”. I get being against over-sensitivity, but mocking an anti-rape slogan to invert the meaning could make victims of sexual assault really uncomfortable.

Edit: literally the entire first page of google results for “no doesn’t mean no” are anti-rape articles. This is seems like a pretty black and white issue.

Google results are personalized so your first page is likely different from other people's. To be honest I would probably have to have been there to know for certain whether he was making a joke referencing rape or just making a more innocent comment.

That being said, tech recruiters as a rule are trash and bugging people about a job after they have refused is a pretty jackass thing to do anyway. So I'm fine not giving him the benefit of the doubt.

It's easy enough to google it yourself if you think "no means no" being related to rape is just a figment of google's algorithm that appears for some people and not others. What was returned when you googled it for yourself?

You can't pretend there is no sexual innuendo. There's a reason the room was laughing, that's because they got "the joke"

If Brandon meant that interpretation though, he should have said oops did not think about this, sorry. All the weird meetings and calling it humor clearly make it seem he meant this.

Start With No by Jim Camp, and Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss are two very good books on how to use/work with "No" in negotiations.

> however sayings like "no doesn't necessarily mean no" is part of a sales mindset.

Precisely why I abhor 'sales' folks. No really does mean no for some folks, and many people in sales cannot differentiate between the 'no means no' and 'no means meh, maybe?' groups. Here's a pointer: one group you will convert into mortal enemies (who can/will influence the other group), the other group you might make a sale.

I agree with you: Sales guys are not nearly as unethical, nor as undesirable, as rapists.

I don’t think that phrase by itself would be problematic if it wasn’t for everything else that’s going on there. I mean, the dude was legit proud of his “just the tip” T-shirt and “suck my dick” jokes in the workplace. That’s pretty damning, if true.

Yeah, that just seemed to me like somebody looking for trouble where there was really none to be found.