PepsiCo Is Acquiring SodaStream for $3.2B | Hacker News Reader

PepsiCo Is Acquiring SodaStream for $3.2B

fortune.com

90 pointsgk1103 comments

I'm surprised PepsiCo would court this kind of controversy: SodaStream is a primary target of the BDS (boycott divest sanctions) movement[1] because of their Israeli origin and particularly their history of operating facilities in disputed territories.

[1] https://bdsmovement.net/tags/sodastream

like we say in English: "Business is Business"

I've never even heard of the BDS movement until this comment, which is possibly a reason why PepsiCo didn't take this seriously.

SodaStream took it seriously enough to move their factory out of the illegal settlements

Any by doing so fired over 500 Palestinian workers.

Perhaps it is a cultural thing, but I've been boycotting Soda stream throughout my adulthood. In fact whenever a conversation arises around me, I advice everyone (with positive feedback) to do the same. Whenever I see Soda Stream in the wild, I cringe a little.

BDS is, and I mean this descriptively and not as an endorsement, a big deal. It has been a focal point of left grassroots politics in the West for the last several years and is one of the major pain points for campus politics. I would say a simple majority of all communication from Jewish advocacy groups the last few years has been around the BDS issue. The US Congress has considered legislation around BDS. I don't really know anyone on any side of the politics divide that doesn't take the issue seriously (whether on a symbolic or on a policy level).

I suspect when you made your comment you thought you were saying "the Emperor has no clothes", but it was actually more like "I don't know anybody who voted for Nixon". Surely the better strategy in a case like this is at least to bother Googling to see if it seems like an active thing or an irrelevant fringe thing.

It's definitely a fringe thing. "Left grassroots" is fringe already.

Not if you care about Israel.

"...because of their Israeli origin..." I realise why you've said this, but when you take a step back, surely you can see this kind of sentiment is bordering on anti-Semitism?

How is it borderline anti-Semitism to advocate that Sodastream goods which were being made on illegally occuipied territories of the West Bank should be boycott?

Israel is unfortunately decending ever future into apartheid and authoritarianism these days. From the ongoing building of settlements, to drip feeding of Gaza, to attempts to block human rights organisations and journalists - things are pretty dam bad these days for many of my friends there.

The factory employed mostly Palestinian workers and offered them Israeli wages and full benefits the documentary on the factory paints a very different picture than what the BDS did.

According the the actual investigation the idea of the factory was to build a small plant for the sake of coexistence now you might say that the idea was bad but at the end it was more expensive for them to run the factory there due to higher payroll taxes, higher insurance and security costs and after the whole campaign drama they just closed it as the their factories in Israel proper were cheaper to run operated at a larger scale and received tax benefits.

Overall I’m really not sold out on the idea that the closure did anyone but the BDS activists any good.

So it's ok to violate the Fourth Geneva Convention if you setup the rare well paying factory?

I’m not an international law expert but I suspect you are not one either.

The truth is that the only real way to crawl out of this situation is by improving the economic standards of the Palestinians and like it or not that will not happen without cooperation with Israel including building shared industrial zones like those that were prospering before their Libyan overlord Arafat decided that enough was enough and started a mess that has been going on for 2 decades.

Before the 2nd Intifada the Palestinian economy was one of the fastest growing in the world what is it today?

Maybe in the past, improving the economic situation would have been enough, given enough time.

Today, Hamas and the Israeli right wing leadership prevent any chance of advancement.

Now it's possible to see the right wing leadership changes, but it won't be easy. It's much harder to see Hamas, a religious extreme based dictatorship, change, without some drastic action, be it an internal revolution or a specific type of war from Israel, aimed at toppling down Hamas. And it's really hard to believe Hamas will change of it's own - extreme religions don't do that.

Both actions would be extremely bloody. A revolution often creates a new type of mess, and how the hell do you start a revolution? And an external war, if you could convince the Israeli public(a big if), even if it's for the Palestinians benefit, is a pretty terrible way to create the necessary goodwill.

Look HAMAS are awful but they are democratically elected in Gaza at least and have shown themselves to be a rational actor when it comes to deal making. For example offering as a negotiating tactic to remove parts of it's charter etc. It was similar in Northern Ireland where the people on the extreme edges ended up being the ones who made the deal. In theory it might have been the same in Israel but Bibi is weak and a coward.

Hamas was democratically elected. they don't rule democratically. they break the knees of people whoe speak against them, for example.

You can’t help but frame everything to fit your bias can’t you? Hamas’s human rights violations in Gaza and the West Bank are worse than anything Israel has done. Hamas took power by force not through any democratic process, parliamentary elections were not what went wrong in Gaza it’s military wing taking power in the Palestinian “civil war” was.

Worse? You know about Sabra and Shatila right?

Lebanese militias killing Palestinians has to do what with Israel?

Black September you know about that right? Want to blame that on the Israelis too?

Even in the region when it comes to Palestinian casualties Israel isn’t playing even in the same league as it’s Neighbors and world wide the scope of this conflict is so negligible it’s not even deserving of a footnote in the grand scheme of things yet over half of the UN declarations are about it.

The human scope of the conflict is nothing it’s far less than the drug violence in Mexico not to mention actual armed conflicts.

Heck 70 years of the conflict won’t amount to a few bad weeks in Syria.

The reason why it’s so easy to claim that criticism of Israel is anti-semitism is exactly because of the level of disproportionate attention this whole conflict is receiving and maybe just maybe if we tone it down a notch they’ll be able to solve it.

Tone it down? Its been 60 years and the roadmap for peace has been around for decades.

Have you read the reports about what happened? Both the UN and the Israeli one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahan_Commission

And no Black September was an awful, awful tragedy. The murder of innocent Israelis by Palestinan groups is a heinous act that rightfully shoulf always been condemned and punished.

Gaza is a lost cause, the West Bank isn’t.

Without economic improvement and normalization there is no prospect for peace no Israeli government will take the chance on anything that isn’t already de facto the situation on the groun. As without it any concession will be met by a military entrenchment; Lebanon and Gaza proved that much in their eyes.

If the situation is normalized a federated system with a constitution simmilar to what Lebanon has that would guarantee Jewish sovereignty despite the possible demographics might be plausible.

So not a democracy then?

Gaza a lost cause...you really think you can make a deal on the West Bank only? While Israel has de facto control over many parts of the Gaza Strip in violation of Geneva Conventions? https://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/israels_obligations

Edit: At least 9,733 Palestinians and 1,253 Israelis and have been killed by someone from the other side since 2000. At least 2,197 Palestinian children and 134 Israeli children have been killed by someone from the other side since 2000.

https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/charts/

Gaza fired what 300,000 rockets and mortars at Israel in the past 10 years? Do you expect any Israeli government to give them anything? I’m surprised they are as constraint as they are Turkey killed what over 50,0000 Kurds in the past 30 years and displaced 3 million of them for much less and I don’t see any big campus rallies against them.

And last time I checked Israel is a democracy, a federated state with a constitution to guarantee that is the only way for the situation not to deroriate into an apartheid or genocide.

No, the only real way out of this situation is for Israeli government to actually get serious about making a deal along what has been proposed before.

Settlement building has gotten so bad in the W.Bank that any chance of a Palestinian State is close to death. Take a look at this map and see for yourself. https://www.ochaopt.org/content/west-bank-access-restriction...

or read about their effect:

https://www.btselem.org/topic/settlements

If the PA collapses, Israel will have a disaster on it's hands whereby it (openly) goes full apartheid or it goes to a Federal system whereby it no longer has Jewish majority.

On the International Law question,"the position that the 4th Geneva Convention does apply to the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights is supported by the International Committee of the Red Cross, UN bodies, and the International Court of Justice."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1682640.stm

The question wasn’t if it applies but if it’s in an explicit violation.

The 4th Geneva convention has allows for rellocation and deportation of the local population both within and outside the occupied area in support of military operations.

And why the rest would be a problem for you? BDS doesn’t want a peace treaty in its own FAQ it states that its demands are not tied to any peace process between the Palestinians and the Israelis nor will it stop if a peace is reached until all its demands are met amongst those are a full right of return and the abolishment of Israel as a Jewish national state.

The PA collapsing is essentially a dream case scenario for extreme groups like BDS since it will escalate the situation further.

No the 4th Geneva Convention doesn't allow for it.........

DEPORTATIONS, TRANSFERS, EVACUATIONS ARTICLE 49

Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.

Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased.

The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.

The Protecting Power shall be informed of any transfers and evacuations as soon as they have taken place. The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.

The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

And yet it's still the best place to live in in the middle east. By far.

Are you taking issue with the parent comment's phrasing, or with the sentiment itself?

The phrasing mostly, he/she was painting with very broad brush strokes.

You're shooting the messenger. GP describes what BDS is about, without taking a stance.

It's undeniable that there are people who boycott anything that comes from the Israel because they think that doing so helps the Palestinian cause. Nothing in GP's comment shows that they're one of those people.

Finally I'm not convinced that calling for boycotts of products from a country immediately implies contempt for the races or religions of the inhabitants of that country.

Blood bubbles

"The majority of all water consumed in the country is sparkling, [SodaStream CEO Daniel Birnbaum] says"

Does anyone know what he's actually talking about? Is he counting all carbonated beverages vs. tap or something?

I find that statement odd as well. The only thing I can think of is he's looking at consumption of purchased products, and I'm assuming that bottled or fountain soda outsells bottled water. If it was actually "all water consumed", tap water would win out pretty handily I'd think.

Either way it's an incredibly misleading sentence, or at least a sentence stated way out of context.

No. It's literally what he meant. Germans drink a LOT of sparkling water.

> If it was actually "all water consumed", tap water would win out pretty handily I'd think.

There's no way tap water beats just coca-cola, let alone coke + all other carbonated drinks.

I assume it's based off of Pepsi's sales figures (and therefore only pertains to their beverage selection).

Consume as in "eat/drink". Not consume as in "use".

The word drink/drank/drunk would be better if the conjugations weren't so aweful. Dranken, drinked are not words. The correct word is "drunk", but it hits the ear badly:

"The majority of all water drunk in the country is sparkling"

I have no idea about the factual accuracy.

I didn't say I didn't understand what he meant, I was saying I don't believe the statement he made. I agree with "I have no idea about the factual accuracy" and is the only thing I was asking about.

I think he is referring to Germany.

If a German buys bottled water, in the most cases it will be sparkling water. At least that's my experience, and the stock at the shop I frequent is >80% sparkling.

I suppose most of those who don't drink sparkling water get it from the tap; at least this holds for the people I know. Remember, water quality is quite good here, only a few areas have a bad taste to their tap water (still drinking water quality though).

Edit: I don't think he counts other beverages, just sales of sparkling vs. non-sparkling water.

I hope the result is to broaden distribution of SodaStream refill canisters, and lower the price due to economies of scale. I'm not holding my breath though.

I've never tried soda flavor packets, but I enjoy carbonating fruit-infused water (watermelon and strawberry are great) and white wine (for cheap but surprisingly good "champagne"). Just be sure not to fill the liquid all the way to the line when using anything other than water!

Isn't warranty void when using it for anything other than water?

Honestly, I would use my SodaStream machine if the cartridges were not so prohibitively expensive in the UK - £15 per refilled cartridge via Argos (being one one the few remaining places where cartridges can even be had).

Feels like Pepsi could revolutionize the carbonated water market in the UK/US by having machines installed in supermarkets to allow filtered bottled water on demand at better prices. Also, feel good and environment factor would be top given no CO2 emissions from trucking tap water around after fizzing it up!

I just posted another comment on this but you can get adapters that let you hook up full sized CO2 tanks. A big one will last you for a year even if you drink tons of soda water

I looked briefly into this but would appreciate a recommendation since that particular market seem very DIY'ish at moment.

Interesting geographic pricing discrimination. They're like £6 to swap in Sweden. I used to do it at my local supermarket. Maybe because there are compatible third-party gas canisters on the market they have to compete with e.g. https://www.xn--ob-eka.se/hushall/koksmaskiner/kolsyremaskin...

The competition is no doubt the driver of reasonable'ish price in Sweden. Honestly feels odd how Sodastream is almost certainly pricing themselves out of the market (I personally know of several families who have abandoned their machines due to cost which can hardly be in Sodastream's favour, unless they are committing a wilful "slow exit" from UK market)

Get an adapter and a full sized CO2 canister and be done with the refills!

I've wondered about this. How much is a full-sized CO2 canister, and is it "food-grade" or whatever is required? I realize it might seem silly to ask since it's supposed to just be carbon dioxide, but my understanding is that some canisters (like helium) are not very pure.

Homebrew supplies can hook you up with a 5L tank and necessary gear.

They are readily used in brewing for carbonating and serving tap beer. I think they're okay, but if you're worried you can buy a brand new canister and only refill with food grade CO2. You can see this for a bit of information

https://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/43655/is-there-s...

Putting milk in it is a right of passage.

I recently tried a soda stream. I was legitimately surprised how poor the official syrups were (Coke, Dr. Pepper, etc). The bubbles were rich but the taste was nothing like store purchased versions of the same.

Half tempted to buy a box of the real syrup from Sam's club and try that with a soda stream.

Your local water supply may not taste the same as the factory water

I was using filtered water.

I was just in florida and was surprised at how bad even the bottled water tasted.

You have to check where it was bottled. No sense in refusing to drink the tap water when the bottles youre buying come from the same municipal source.

Yep, we ended up buying water bottled from the Himalayan springs, untouched by modern society. Just kidding, New Jersey.

I found that the Coke-alike syrup could taste a lot like Coke, but you had to add a little less than half the amount of syrup they recommend.

I eventually dropped it, though, because the CO2 canisters were too expensive and didn't want the hassle of modding it to use a rechargeable CO2 system (and the subsequent years of being tied to it to get back to a neutral return-on-investment versus just buying Coke).

You do not have to use any of the syrups. Far better off to just add bit of juice for taste.

A few years ago we did SodaStream alot, and our latest fridge even has a SodaStream dispenser built in. However in recent years the variety, and quality, of syrups went downhill as I believe they were focusing more on flavored sparkling rather than mainstream soda. Hope this changes that.

I've just been using the little squirt bottles of water flavoring (Mio, Dasani, and a number of other brands) with our SodaStream. Works like a charm for me. They tend to be fruit-flavored but that's what I prefer anyway. Just shoot them in your glass, not in the bottle.

I find it easier to get the variety that way - don't have to commit to a flavor for a whole bottle & no need for multiple bottles in the fridge.

Making syrup is dead simple. Hell, a little lemon juice and sugar and you've got lemon soda. And the soda water by itself is fine when it's hot.

I make chocolate syrup so I can have egg creams in the summer. Also, mint syrup because it grows wild in my yard.

I couldn't agree more. It's actually really fun too. I'd love to see more people finding new concoctions and sharing syrup recipes. We've got a few companies covering entire store shelf space with 10 variations each of the same 8-12 ingredients.

There's no better feeling than letting a friend try a soda you made yourself from scratch and watching their eyebrows go up in surprise because your cocktail of flavours is awesome.

Having tried several syrups, I prefer to mix the carbonated water with fruit juices. Use orange juice to make orange soda, apple for cider-like soda, or any fruit juice you enjoy. I find fruit juice to have a better balance of flavor and sweetness (less sweet) than most syrups you can get, which makes sense given the amount of sugar in them.

The only syrup I still use is Indian tonic for cocktails.

I do the same thing, and if I’m craving something sweeter I just add a small shot of simple syrup, which is incredibly easy and cheap to make. As a bonus it tastes much better than corn syrupy crap.

I’m slightly surprised by all the comments here about syrups. Our SodaStream is used a couple of times a day to make soda water, and I can’t remember the last time a flavouring was added. Mind you, it always surprises me to hear people say they don‘t like the taste of water.

I think the carbonated water drinkers are very happy with SodaStreams. The flavored soda drinkers have mixed opinions.

I think they are great, as I like to drink about a liter of seltzer a day.

I like the Le Croix flavors in a can, and I often add bitters to plain seltzer. There are a ton of varieties of bitters available these days.

It always surprises me to hear that people enjoy carbonated water. Different strokes. The only way I can stand carbonation is with some flavor. Tap water is just fine to me.

I'm serious surprised that Sodastream is valued at $3.2B. Keurig Dr Pepper Inc (NYSE: KDP) is only at marketvalued around 4B (though the acquisition and merger are skewing the numbers a bit).

The value is in the margins. SodaSteam I'd imagine has lower costs. CO2 is not very expensive, but those cartridges are $20-$30 to refill. That is almost pure profit.

Question: can SodaStream carbonate arbitrary liquids like orange juice, or just pure water? If it can only carbonate water, which you then mix with flavoring, what’s the advantage over bottled seltzer from the store?

Yea. It's just adding pressure to liquid. You can carbonate whatever you want in it. Tried it was apple juice once and it was neat, but ended up really using it almost exclusively for carbonated water.

Officially, just pure water.

Unofficially, you can hack it [1].

Back in 2015, there were plans to unveil something that could officially do more [2], but that seems to not be for the consumer market.

1. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/27/dining/hacking-home-soda-...

2. https://firstwefeast.com/eat/2015/04/sodastream-mix-will-car...

The problem is that when you release pressure on anything but water, as the CO2 starts to come out of solution it bubbles up and tends to spill out of the bottle.

I'm sure there is science on this but my naive guess is that this is partly because theres more nucleation sites to bubble more, and then the non-water fluid will "soap" up a bit for lack of a better description (form bubles) causing it to then spill up and out.

You can get around this by releasing the pressure slowly. Some models of SodaStream (e.g. the Source) let you do this and others do not (e.g. the electric model).

As a secondary concern if the fluids do spill up out of the top into the valve area, it gets stuff on the seals etc and it doesn't seal as well later. Lower pressure = less carboned. And it's very easy to do this even releasing the pressure slowly.

So; yes.. but.. no. If you want to do that regularly, you're better off making some other kind of solution I think. It's pretty easy to make your own rudimentary sodastream. (and as others stated, they specifically tell you not to do this)

> what’s the advantage over bottled seltzer from the store?

Not needing to buy plastic bottles and trashing them when you are done with them!?

For those who care, google "DIY sodastream", you can build your own refill canister attachment apparatus and be free from their razor blades/razor or ink tank/inkjet business model.

I've thought the same. But the soda stream co2 refills are way easier to pickup. And with the 20% off bed bath and beyond coupon it's not that much more expensive

This seems like a very smart purchase, as soda bottle sales are flat or declining in many parts of the world.

Yes, and the flat soda bottles don't sell well at all.

So does this mean the future of soda drinks is making them at home ? If not, why? What's missing ?

Personally I have no interest in making soda at home as I’ll only indulge in a soda once or twice in a year. For me, I’ll buy it at a restaurant or a vending machine, and that’s the end of it

Nothing is missing, it's just a bit of an upfront cost if you want soda that doesn't taste terrible. All of the consumer products are cheaply made, weak, and ridiculously overpriced even for the terrible quality you get.

If you want something that tastes as good as a restaurant then you pretty much need to buy the same equipment and it'll set you back at least $1k^, a weekend projects worth of installation time, and the cost of a CO2 tank and bulk syrup.

^ You can probably get under $1k if all you want is a soda-gun without the fancy dispenser.

Oddly enough I seriously investigated this path when I was drinking 1600oz (47 liters) per week of Diet Dr. Pepper. It was possible, through careful shopping, to buy it between 2 and 3 cents per ounce. Trying to buy it as bulk syrup was something like 4 cents per ounce (of soda) not counting the cost of the CO2 and filter system for the water.

Jesus no offense but I also hope you shopped for a good healthcare provider along the way also.

No offense taken. In this particular sample of one there have not been any deleterious effects from that level of consumption. The only medical anomaly detected has been a lower than expected cholesterol level given age/weight models. When I decided to give it up in February of this year there was about a 3 day caffeine withdrawal experience followed by dealing with the habituated 'sweet drink' habit (I've replaced my Diet Dr. Pepper consumption with water which doesn't satisfy a drink something sweet habit well). My expectation is that by next February that habit will also stop impinging on me.

Take care about drinking too much water also it’s very good at flushing micro nutrients from your system including calcium, and that won’t show in most blood work.

Do restaurants serve better coke than comes from the factory?

I always thought one of the great things with America was that the richest billionaire and the poorest bum drank the same quality of Coca Cola.

Yeah, I’m confused by this too. My experience and perception has always been the factory bottled stuff is way better than the fountain stuff you get in a restaurant.

You mean well, well under $1k... like $65 and some craiglisting. You can have a soda machine that will be somewhere between $0.08 and $0.15 cents a liter to operate.

If you can find a commercial soda machine/gun kit for $65 I would by it on the spot. The operation costs are super cheap, which is the point, but I haven't found the equipment anywhere cheaper than around $800.

Sigh. When can we have new products again, instead of old products with new business models?

I would love to see an API to make your own soda flavors at home

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_cola

Have at it!

If this doesn't violate anti-trust I don't know what would.

Would love to know the difference between vertical integration and anti-trust.

Vertical integration is grabbing up- and down-stream in your supply chain.

Anti-trust is about grabbing horizontal competitors.

Why would this be anti-trust? Sodastream has competitors who do the exact same thing, not to mention their biggest competitor, which is pre-bottled sparkling water.

The market disagrees with you as it's trading at $142 at the moment. It's not like Coke is merging with Pepsi.

Now that would be a new coke!

Keurig and DPSG already did this. There isn't any reason to block this...

It's not categorically okay just because others have done it.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com