Greek island to run on wind, solar power | Hacker News Reader

Greek island to run on wind, solar power

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79 pointsdnetesn45 comments

That’s a good start, now if only the Greek government would allow us individuals to use wind and solar energy (with a proper plan including a battery storage system) without breaking the law. It’s illegal to own a house not connected to the national grid.

Can't you be connected to the grid on part of the house, say the garage, but not the rest?

Yeah but it removes one of the benefits of having a house that's entirely self-sustaining in terms of power: not having to put in all that infrastructure in place to bring the power there.

Would it be legal to connect a house to the national grid, and attach the meter to a whole panel that has basically one live 230V 10A circuit on it, with a 15W lightbulb connected? The rest of the house could have its own offgrid panel and inverter system, islanded from the grid-connected breaker panel.

To answer your question (and a similar comment directly below) that's one solution, but you still have to pay monthly charges and taxes even if you have a "dummy" connection. Besides the fact that if the utility worker that checks the electricity meters (yeah they're not online!), comes around for a reading and sees that you have solar/wind you're screwed.

You're screwed how? Because it's not allowed to have a photovoltaic system that is separate from and islanded from the grid? As long as your meter and the panel it is connected to are up to legal code, what is illegal?

Are the Athos monasteries also connected to the grid? (According to the night photos they seem to have lighting.)

A quick Google search gave me a couple of sources [1][2] (sorry, it's in Greek, but Google Translate can work)

As far as I understand, some small parts near the north are indeed connected to the grid, some use photovoltaics/solar energy, and some just use generators or no electricity at all. The first article cites 9000€ spent for generator fuel per year for the Police Station in Karyes, the capital of the Athos peninsula. The way I understand it, is that the monasteries try to be as self-dependent as possible, the logistics of building large-scale infrastructure are too big (for a variety of reasons, and thus, small-scale solutions are preferred).

[1] http://newpost.gr/ellada/619145/ieres-mpiznes-me-to-amartwlo...

[2] http://www.photovoltaic.gr/el/master/page/portfolio/%CE%B1%C...

The Greek regulatory authority for energy is actively planning the connection of most of the islands to the continental grid using submarine cables. [1]

On top of that Euroasia Interconnector will be connecting the grinds of Greece, Cyprus and Israel forming the world's longest submarine power cable. [2]

Connecting the power grid is cheaper long-term. Greece has roughly 200 inhabited islands.

[1] http://www.ekathimerini.com/230518/article/ekathimerini/busi...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EuroAsia_Interconnector#/media...

Err no !!

Grid cables fail and need redundancy and maintenance. So for smaller islands - isolation could be easier.

The Euroasia cable could be nice. But i think all three countries are on a trend to reduce coal, increase Gas and push on solar. So i am not sure how much redundancy this will bring.

From what I gather, the price of local generation has reached the point where it is less than the cost of high voltage transmission. Add to that battery storage will reach about 100kwh in the next two years and there's no reason anywhere should need to be connected to the massive grids we've known in the past.

What's the meaning of that battery number 100 kWh?

I guess he means 100$/kWh...

Speaking of islands... How about Hawaii? They burn a lot of oil to generate electricity. I wish we could speed up the move to wind and solar there.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/power-plant...

"Hawaii gets two-thirds of its electricity from oil, the only state where it is the leading energy source." (emphasis mine)

Man, you'd think it would almost be state law that you have some panels on your roof in Hawaii. Too lazy to look it up and do math, but if it's economically feasible to use solar in Seattle, it's gotta be for damned sure a quick ROI in sunny Hawaii.

There's so much that it destabilized the grid and the power company got mad.

There's a policy initiative about it:

http://www.hawaiicleanenergyinitiative.org/

I guess it can be sort of slow moving (2045) and still more ambitious than other states.

Hawaii has _too much_ sun, because of the isolated nature of its electric grid, meaning they have nowhere to shift power to or from. If we had a good storage option, or if one was deployed in Hawaii, the situation would change dramatically.

I wonder if they could do some sort of pumped hydro with the ocean. Dam off a bay somewhere?

Salt water is hard to work with.

Here's what a vaguely correctly sized station looks like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington_Pumped_Storage_Power...

The upper reservoir is measured in miles and is 300 feet above the lower reservoir.

One half as big would still be pretty useful, but that's still big.

Also, the volcanic geology of Hawaii means you want to have a very reliable seal on the bottom of that reservoir or you will be leaking tons of salt water into the local groundwater system. Possible, as modern landfills are sealed this way, but much more expensive than a fresh water lake. Not sure it has ever been done, actually.

As for damning off a bay; that does not work so well as you would want a decent elevation drop for energy storage.

Edit: Reading over the Ludington pumped station wikipedia page, it does have a sealed bottom. It is on another naturally porous geologic setting, sand dunes, and is above the water table. Thus the need for a sealed reservoir.

Salt water is basically cancer, ask anyone that's ever maintained a 45' yacht... You don't want to deal with it unless you absolutely need to. Anything exposed to salt water 24x7x365 is a study in accelerated entropy.

They could just boil the ocean if they really need to dump energy.

You can also just disconnect solar panels if large swaths of generation is not required.

Who will pay for a solar plant that is either disconnected or otherwise wastes the energy generated?

If we get to that point, it sounds like we haven't designed the system to our needs.

In this case; deploy more storage to match the output of the panels and our energy requirements, or simply deploy less panels.

Who puts up the capital for energy storage plants that don't generate any power?

How many cycles does the battery in a smart phone last for? How are grid scale batteries any different?

The reason solar isn't pervasive yet is not technical it is the economics to replace dispatchable generation aren't there yet.

Grid scale batteries are different in that they can use different chemistry (volume is not as important), better cooling and less aggressive charge/discharge cycles to increase lifetime.

I was under the impression that Tessa's product they sold to Australia was essentially a bunch of tesla vehicle batteries which are lithium ion which is the same as laptops and phones. Is there some distinction?

I have seen and old grid scale battery at fort Bragg. It was lead acid and the size of a city block and could power the whole base for three days, but it was for backup not regular cycles. I thought new grid scale batteries were different from this one.

Less agressive charge/discharge cycles means overprovisioning which means more cost.if you Want the battery to power the island overnight in 5 years then you have to get a battery that is 5x the MWH that you need. Which is a fine technical solution but makes the economics worse.

I'm no expert in the topic, but "lithium ion" is a broad category of different chemistries with different characteristics. Cooling also plays a very important role. Tesla's powerwall for example has a warranty of 5000 cycles whereas my Macbook's battery is only good for 1000 cycles and my previous Macbook's battery was only good for 300 cycles.

Flywheel storage?

You can always run a desalination plant.

Puerto Rico could really start using renewable energy. After Maria at least one school went fully solar (which makes me believe that all Public Schools should go solar... since they're mostly in use during day time).

I was bummed to learn that the electricity on some islands (like Providencia) is provided by a diesel generator that runs 24/7. This in a climate that is sunny and windy pretty much all year.

This is the case for almost every island in the world!

Notably, Block Island, off the coast of Rhode Island[1], is powered 100% by five offshore wind turbines.[2] The Block Island generators were switched off in 2017. It is awe inspiring to see the turbines up close via boat. It feels like a vision of the future.

[1]: for international users: Rhode Island is a small US state which is not actually an island.

[2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_Island_Wind_Farm

Hypothesis: the development of batteries, wind turbines, and solar panels, combine to make it less necessary to live near to large population centers. There was a time when the mill needed to be near a source of running or falling water, and then later fossil fuels made that unnecessary, and industrial production moved to different places. Batteries + wind/solar might have a similar impact, making islands (and other remote places) have less of a disadvantage then before.

Just a thought I had, which I have given about 90 seconds' consideration to. Might be wrong.

You're right. In the future you may have a holiday home on the beach that you power using your car when you go on trips for the weekend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66D6spRemGk

It's a connected world, and people benefit from being near other people. Also all that isolation-support tech is imported...

This is awesome. There are a so many places in the aegean where its cost prohibitive to connect to existing electricity (even when its available within a few kilometers). That problem, coupled with consistent presence of wind and sun, makes its an excellent place for off-grid solutions to flourish.

Yes, it potentially also helps solve another problem many greek islands have: water shortages. With surplus clean energy they could invest in desalination plants to produce drinking water and stop depleting their natural resources.

> TILOS—Technology Innovation for the Local Scale Optimum Integration of Battery Energy Storage

Not that it really matters, but I think somebody doesn't understand how initials work.

Costa Rica IIRC leads the world in renewables, followed closely by some North African and Middle Eastern countries.

There are several countries that run near 100% renewable. Most of them are getting their electricity from hydro dams though, rather than solar and wind.

Hydro dams have their own environmental concerns.

Too much Hydro (by percentage of generation) also leaves the power generation at risk if a drought occurs too[1][2][3].

There is just too much uncertainty in long term seasonal rain fall levels, especially with the effects of climate change as well as El Niño and La Niña cycles. Resulting in low production years.

[1]http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/energy-green/sd... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/08/malawi-blackou... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/mar/30/weatherwatch-ha...

Ecuador is 100% hydro - have been for a long time.

I've been there. Most of them already do. People rarely rely on the main grid anymore.

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