The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville (1984)
www8.gsb.columbia.edu
www8.gsb.columbia.edu
The rise of quants, ETFs, and instant information has largely arbitraged away value mispricings. So if it looks like a bargain, it's probably a value trap.
So where can you find value? Where the above things are not present. Quants work for big firms. Goldman Sachs can only make a dent if it does massive deals. As Buffett said, he could still do great things with $1mm AUM, but with billions, he can't make small plays anymore. So individuals can only find value where the big players (GC, ETFs) don't play. This means micro caps, foreign stocks (Japan comes to mind as a hot spot for value). The problem is two fold:
1. The above-mentioned pool is very small.
2. It's riskier.
So you have to do a ton of research to avoid the value trap mistake, often with way less information since these stocks aren't subject to the same 10K/10Q auditing that American stocks are.
Now you've researched something so much you're biased to believe it working since you've sunk so much time into it. And because you've sunk so much time you don't have the time to research the rest of the investment pool, so combined you see these value investors who are very concentrated in some highly-convicted bets. And thus, the ones that win, win big and can claim there is always value to be found even in a market dominated by momentum investing. The rest lose to value traps, and lose big.
So what's the takeaway? It still works. The low numbers in terms of P/E and P/B that are in books like The Intelligent Investor don't work. You have to relax those constraints quite a bit. And you can't be looking in the S&P 500.
I used to think I could do this as a hobby. And I did. But I think I got lucky based on the amount of time and research I did. To be demonstratively good at value investing time and time again requires robotic levels of dispassionate patience, and research that demands a full time job.
Buffet, on the other hand, regularly buys up these low-volatility companies using borrowed money. If you take something that behaves like 80% of the S&P 500 and lever it up 125%, you'll get the performance of the S&P 500. But the 80% S&P 500 stock is cheaper than it "should" be, so you wind up over-performing instead.
Behavioral mispricing can be arbitraged. Risk cannot be arbitraged away.
Value still works and will always work due to this added risk component.
I know this is an annoying question, but can you reference a couple of them? I’m interested in reading.
I always keep a null hypothesis handy. (Usually an index fund.) I’ll research my targets alongside the fund(s).
I'd be interested in learning more about this, even if just for the sake of a hobbyist's fascination in stock markets outside of the U.S. Are there any resources you'd suggest for somebody who has amateur interest in value investing but without a lick of Japanese language & cultural knowledge?
> To be demonstratively good at value investing time and time again requires robotic levels of dispassionate patience
There's a good sci-fi short story buried in this somewhere... Stock Runner, perhaps?
Yes, those things do exist, that doesn't mean those companies are value stocks. Facebook is still trading at a P/E ratio of 28, and an EV/EBIT of 20, both of which are high. Was it a discount to it's current momentum? Yes. Was it a discount based on value? I'd say not.
Back when companies tended to have a lot of physical assets (relative to their overall value) that tended to depreciate slowly, that might have been easy to calculate. For a company that participates in the information or service economy, though, virtually all of their value is tied up in intangibles, and about the only physical assets that are likely to have any value at all after a few years are the office furniture.
What's still reasonably valid is the concept of both moats and float, both of which I think you can get indications of in the 10-Q/A reports that aren't always reflected in current expectations.
Also, focus on where you can win. You aren't pricing AAPL better than the legions of professionals over 5 years, but the boring small-mid cap stocks that are too small for major funds to care about have more opportunity.
And finally: this is why indexing is such a huge thing. This stuff is hard, and using a low fee fund to track the market lets you live your life instead of having an extra job. I personally quit because while the % was good, the scalar wasn't worth the time invested.
I'm still working on getting the balls to short some housing stocks for the burgeoning correction. It might be too late though. LEN KBH DHI TOL
In favor of it already being too late: TOL is back to where it was six years ago, with three times the sales now vs then, and for practical purposes infinite more profit (they only finally got back to profitable in 2Q12). What would the short thesis be against that setup? It certainly does look like a lot of downside is built in now. Meanwhile HD is trampling estimates.
We've got no inventory build (the exact opposite, a painful dearth of inventory). The job market is extremely strong. Mortgage defaults aren't soaring. Household debt isn't soaring. A value stagnation (wages aren't rising fast enough) looks like the most likely bad scenario for now, instead of a meaningful correction.
Balance sheets become less meaningful going forward. Google's greatness is not to be found in its physical assets.
Basically, if you are a good business with a strong moat, you will be able to invest in your business at a compounding rate. ROIC is a way to measure this
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4116677-greenblatts-magic-w...
You correctly mentioned being able to turn to smaller companies and low liquidity situations. Some professional players also self sabotage due to a particular mandate or ridiculous constraints, such as avoiding volatility. Having too much apparently useful information can also be a curse.
You can also choose to just "not play" sometimes. You don't have customers or bosses and you're only competing with yourself. Or rather, you're not competing at all. When things get confusing and very highly valued (as they have been for years now), you can just do nothing. Or at least do less.
Another advantage you have, which is related, is being able to have a very long term perspective. By which I mean a perspective measured in decades, which is the timescale at which the world and its financial conditions truly seem to change.
There's times like the late 70s/early 80s, where stock markets were not just ultra low, but pretty much COMATOSE. People just didn't do stocks. They remembered stocks as that thing from another age. At least in my country, the typical stock owners in that time were families whose patrimonium was tied up in 1 single company that they controlled. Needless to say, volume and liquidity was next to nothing. (By my understanding, conditions like these must have occured at least 4 times in the 20th century. Not yet in the 21st century, not even in 2000-2002 and 2007-2008, but it will.)
In a sort of Upside Down World mirror image of today, investors in the late 70s/early 80s were all about fearing stagflation, when the exact opposite was about to unfold due to central bankers receiving popular carte blanche for brutal anti-inflation shock therapy. They were quite literally lining up around the block to buy gold. Movies like "Rollover" were being made and Grandmaster Flash was rapping about double digit inflation.
Today it's all about "TINA" and low yields and the central banker put, while in reality central bankers are slowly moving back to taking orders from politicians and are walking on egg shells about a 0.1% hike because they suspect they have painted themselves in a corner. Back then some companies where almost literally hiding their profits ("pour vivre heureux, vivons caches") whereas today making a loss is almost something to be proud of.
That being said, even though these are very hard times for value investors, you can always keep searching. Like you say, it's a hobby, like going to flea markets. Personally, for the last few years, I've found interesting stuff going on in (certain) gold mines. No moat and a dependence on the price of a commodity most hated by Buffett. The general atmosphere there is depressing and it's definitely not a crowded place. There were 3 subsequent heavy tax loss selling years (2014, 2015 and 2016).
Yet the sector has been going through a very extensive cleaning period after the 2011-2016 nuclear winter and you can find (fairly) reliably profitable mid tier producers at very nice prices. They will still go up and down with the gold price, so you can't call them real value stocks. But the good ones can stay profitable even with lower prices and therefore do not go down as much as the others. So there is an obvious differentiation and a sizeable margin of safety, as big as it will ever be there. In that sense, they look like value plays to me. I'm comfortable being there.
In a more negative way, I've become interested in South Africa, an increasingly unstable country where 70-80% of the world's platinum and rhodium are currently being mined at massive losses. (Holding platinum and rhodium ETFs is commodities speculation rather than value stocks, but ok.)
The professionals suck at their jobs.
I've consistently beat them by orders of magnitude without even trying. If the returns are not 10-25 percent every year I'm not bothering with the people that do it for a living.
Many famous value investors such as Bill Ackman, Bruce Berkowitz and David Einhorn have been getting absolutely killed in the market in the last several years.
It is difficult for me to imagine that this pendulum will never swing back. The combination of oligopolistic technology firms (platforms!), Quantitative Easing, low interest rates and more globalisation than ever certainly make for exciting times.
i didnt do value investing but took some classes and attended some talks, so i am not an expert, but from what i saw, things have changed a lot. it is harder to be a value investor today just because everything is so expensive. just like 50 years ago opportunities to buy businesses for less than book value became harder and harder to find, in today's market it is much harder to find value investments as defined by traditional valuation metrics like EV / EBITDA, ROIC, FCF / earnings yield, etc
Value oriented funds, and long / short equity funds in general, have been having a tough time. Too many funds popped up in the last 20 years and they are all competing for a few good investments. People are changing the definition of "value", though i am not sure if anyone has found a good one. Many people pitched FB and Google as value stocks, even though by traditional metrics they could not qualify as value investments
Bill Ackman, a prominent investor and sponsor of an investing contest that is a major part of the value investing curriculum, said if he was starting today he wouldnt be an investor, but would start a tech company. He wasn't the only HF manager who expressed that sentiment
1. He recognized the multiplicative power of combining the insurance float alongside his stellar investment ability.
2. He recognized the power of moat and brand value vs. Graham and Doddsville.
3. He saw the value in return on capital over purely P/E for a growing business from Sees Candy.
As an aside, one reason long/shorts have had a tough time is that low rates make it harder to generate an automatic 6% return on your short book.
But, I believe many value investors have failed to understand how technology and network-based platforms work. P/S works better for AMZN than P/E when the CEO is trying to minimize E. NFLX could have lower its P/E to 20 if it charged $15/month last December. FB just had to monetize its platform by something like a couple dollars per user right after it IPO'd. I think many traditional value investors did not understand or adapt their thinking regarding stickiness, revenue per user expansion, fixed costs for platform-based businesses, and redefining what tangible and intangible asset value is.
There's an almost stubbornness to many of these investors versus a curiosity to listen to an alternative viewpoint.
http://shareseer.com/today/insiders
http://shareseer.com/today/filings I’m trying to learn what are your pain points with your investment research process ? Is this useful? And feature requests?
Buffett's bio by Lowenstein, "Buffett: Making of an American Capitalist".
A collection of Buffett's writings in: http://www.monitorinvestimentos.com.br/download/The%20Essays...