Comment by cyphar | Hacker News Reader

Comment by cyphar | Hacker News Reader

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> I'm an Apple fan because I don't need to repair the device

Given that Apple has no data recovery service for any of their products (even if you tell them that you'll give them a limitless pile of cash) and that they solder storage into most of their devices (that is paired to the CPU -- so you cannot remove the flash chip and put it onto a working board to recover data), this is a very bold claim.

Maybe you don't need your phone to be repaired when it is water damaged and you can no longer get photos of your children (that you should've backed up, but didn't). Maybe you want to pay US$300 to replace an out-of-warranty phone when the only thing wrong with it is that a headphone jack got stuck inside the port[1]. Maybe you don't want to pay more than the device is worth to fix a brand-new device[2].

Apple devices aren't just hard to repair, Apple as a company is anti-repair -- and defending this practice is not a reasonable position to hold. I understand arguing that Apple products are easier to use, or that they are more consumer-friendly, or that consumers shouldn't have full control over their devices because they'll probably brick them, and so on. But arguing that them being irreparable is a good thing is not justifiable (even if you don't need your device repaired, someone else will, and out-right ignoring that is misinformed).

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR5ZUl0Q-NI [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-NU7yOSElE

Apple has had iCloud backup for some time now, including cloud camera rolls. For your second source there, this is pretty common practice. You take the device apart and damage it in the process then why should the company stand by that? They have to worry about legal issues because the fine consumers sue them for every little thing they do, therefore as a result they cover their own ass. Sony is also a big offender here, they won’t repair a playstation that you’ve attempted to mod. Your first source is just some guy talking and nobody has the time to watch that BS

> Apple has had iCloud backup for some time now, including cloud camera rolls.

I believe Apple have the ability to read any data in an iCloud backup. The data on my phone include my password file, encrypted with an easy-to-type-on-a-screen-keyboard password, which means that it's not a high-entropy password. There's no way that I would allow a cloud provider access to that file.

Note, Apple do say on https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 that it's all end-to-end encrypted and they cannot read the backup, but they also say 'To access your data on a new device, you might have to enter the passcode for an existing or former device,' which implies that if one loses a device then one can buy a new device and enter the old device's passcode — which means that Apple themselves could just try passcodes iteratively.

If it's possible for you to restore data from a lost device without typing in a high-entropy password, then it's possible for Apple to read the data without guessing a high-entropy password.

Total 100% nonsense.

Apple's not going to violate the trust of all of its users by iteratively guessing each user's passcodes. Don't be silly.

Apple can't read your data even if they want to and the device itself is programmatically locked after a set number of attempts and wipes itself after several more. Stop spreading FUD.

I use iPhone SE and my fingers are relatively fat. Yet I have no troubles to enter the strong password on the phone. Or do you mean that you do not use Touch ID?

> Apple has had iCloud backup for some time now, including cloud camera rolls.

This doesn't help someone who never set up iCloud, has forgotten their password and/or methods of recovery, or any other list of problems. iCloud is a form of backup, by the way, and I specifically mentioned people that didn't set up backups. If you think I'm cherry-picking or coming up with some imaginary position, watch some of Jessa Jones' videos[1]. Many of her customers are in a position where they need data on their phones, and it's not in iCloud.

> You take the device apart and damage it in the process then why should the company stand by that?

They wouldn't repair it at all -- they were willing and wanted to pay for the repair. There were many arguments online why they didn't want to repair it (including that the Apple store couldn't get the parts from Apple, they weren't certified to repair it because they were still on the certification waiting list, etc). And of course you can't buy replacement parts because it's Apple (though eventually they managed to get replacement parts, it definitely was not by following the rules). Other manufacturers don't act this way.

> fine consumers sue them for every little thing they do

"little things" like manufacturing defective keyboards and denying that it's defective and refusing repairs or returns until enough people get together to sue them so that they fix a defective product? Or "little things" like using the wrong kind of capacitor near a GPU, causing GPUs to fry in almost every edition of the Macbook -- prompting recalls (or as they call them: "extended warranty programs") only after lawsuits?

I can't imagine why consumers would ever sue such a lovely company. /s

> Your first source is just some guy talking and nobody has the time to watch that BS.

The tl;dr is that 3rd-party (unauthorised) repair shops appear to be far more knowledgeable and reasonable about repairing iPhones and other Apple devices than authorised repair shops. If you'd like the longer form summary, watch the video.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPjp41qeXe1o_lp1US9TpWA

> This doesn't help someone who never set up iCloud, has forgotten their password and/or methods of recovery, or any other list of problems. iCloud is a form of backup, by the way, and I specifically mentioned people that didn't set up backups. If you think I'm cherry-picking or coming up with some imaginary position, watch some of Jessa Jones' videos[1]. Many of her customers are in a position where they need data on their phones, and it's not in iCloud.

So if you use the device incorrectly, it doesn't work? How exactly is Android better if whatever you happen to need is stored on the device and not an SD card?

> So if you use the device incorrectly, it doesn't work?

[EDIT: Apparently iCloud backups are enabled by default since iOS 9. TIL.]

iCloud is optional, is it not? The last time I used an iDevice (maybe 6 years ago) I didn't set up iCloud and I don't remember being forced to use it -- has that changed? If it is still optional, then I don't see how not using iCloud is "using the device incorrectly". Is this the new "you're holding it wrong"? Or "you should've bought AppleCare"?

Of course people should have backups, but I'd like to see you tell someone they should've known better when they've potentially lost their child's baby photos, or photos of their recently-deceased child. I'm not sure you'd be capable of being so callous in that sort of situation.

> How exactly is Android better if whatever you happen to need is stored on the device and not an SD card?

With most Android phones (such as Samsung ones) you can desolder the flash chip from the device and solder it onto a known-working board (or place it in a device that acts as a known-good board -- those devices can be bought from China relatively cheaply).

With iPhones you cannot do this because the data is encrypted and paired with the CPU (and a few other components on the board are paired to the CPU like the SMC). Now, you could reasonably argue that this is for security, but you couldn't argue that this is not anti-repair.

In addition, the new Macbooks have their soldered-in SSDs paired to the CPU as well. So you can't do data recovery on those without fixing the board (and apparently on those devices if a single USB-C controller dies, all of the USB-C ports die -- so you have to bring the board back to a completely working state in order to do data recovery).

Ok so are you arguing to Joe Public or for Dave Hacker? You can't have it both ways. Somebody who can desolder and resolder a flash chip to a good device isn't likely to forget their freaking iCloud recovery questions or password. Conversely, someone who does or rolls without iCloud isn't likely to have the skills to recover data in this way.

> Ok so are you arguing to Joe Public or for Dave Hacker? You can't have it both ways.

I'm arguing for Joe Public. Whether or not you can desolder or resolder a flash chip impacts whether Joe Public will be able to find a repair shop (run by a Dave Hacker) that can recover his data -- I wasn't arguing that Joe Public should be desoldering chips from his phones motherboard.

There are repair shops that recover data from Apple devices, but the fact that the chip is paired to the CPU means that (in the case of water damaged devices) you need to get the board to boot successfully with a working touch-screen in order to pull the data off via USB. If the CPU is dead then your data is gone, even if the flash chip is still fully functional. If you had the same situation with a Samsung device, you can remove the flash chip and place it into an "enclosure" that pulls the data off without needing to fix the broken phone.

And I completely agree that pairing the flash chip to the CPU is more secure against attackers taking your data if they've got hold of your phone. But it does mean that the phone is inherently less repairable -- which consumers should be aware of because it does affect them (even if they are just "a user").

Since iOS 9 it continuously backs up to iCloud by default [1] so it's not true that it doesn't help someone who never set up iCloud.

As an iPhone and Macbook user I agree with you that repairability is an issue. To be honest it is something I am taking seriously in my next laptop purchase and might be the issue that tips me back over to PC/Android. I definitely will not be "upgrading" to the new touchbar, keyboard and trackpad.

[1] https://medium.com/@nweaver/the-in-security-of-icloud-backup...

> Since iOS 9 it continuously backs up to iCloud by default

Oh, I didn't know that. I haven't used an Apple device in more than half a decade.

However, there are still many people that use the data recovery service offered by people like Jessa Jones -- so I imagine that this is still an issue people have even with newer devices.

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