Electric scooters are illegal in the UK because of 1835 law
businessinsider.com
businessinsider.com
That said, whether they're explicitly forbidden in your country, or in a legal grey area, I think anyone riding these scooters is asking for trouble. If you do cause an accident, your personal liability insurance will not cover anything. Even if you aren't at fault, you are on a vehicle that has no legal category, no insurance, and is not supposed to be used on public roads. Given that some models go up to 50 km/h, this kind of risk sounds pretty insane.
We definitely need legislators to work things out before SV startups put them in the hands of unaware people.
However, they are definitely too fast for sidewalks and they're not even safe unless the sidewalk is free of imperfections such as holes and bumps.
Bicycles belong in a category that is properly defined by the law. Riding a bicycle is explicitly covered by your personal liability insurance. 45 km/h e-bikes have their own special category and need license, plate, registration and specific insurance.
How many people do you think have personal liability insurance in Europe?
If you use a bike on public roads and want to be insured, you can. A scooter, your insurer will tell you they cannot do anything.
If you think a law is outmoded or no longer reflects society's values, then you have recourse: get it repealed or amended. Or flaunt the law and take your chances. People do that all the time, with greater or lesser degrees of success.
Societies ruled by law should not ignore old laws just because we think the original authors could not have possibly basic good judgments like, say, pedestrians should be safe on pedestrian thoroughfares.
The solution isn’t to get non-cars to act more like cars. The solution is to modify the streetscape to accommodate all viable modes. Drivers obviously aren’t going to like this, either, because they currently get so much deference that there’s basically no place to go but down.
Except now, in cities and town small and large, all of a sudden there are electric powered vehicles doing between 15 MPH to 30 MPH on crowded sidewalks whose operators do not seem to understand sidewalks are for pedestrians. They also do not communicate with the pedestrians and others operators around them. Every day I witness collisions and near collisions, but none of that gets reported as widely or loudly as a car crash. This needs to stop.
If I have to choose between 19th century law versus trying to argue with every buzzing operator individually, I'll go for the 19th century law.
> Every day I witness collisions and near collisions, but none of that gets reported as widely or loudly as a car crash. This needs to stop.
Everybody in this thread knows somebody who died or was severely injured in an automobile accident. It's obscene to compare their losses to the nuisance of scooter "near collisions."
This isn't an attack on you, personally. We've all become inured to the carnage, but sometimes it's worth taking a step back to remember that there's a reason we treat cars differently, one that renders arguments of the form, "but what about pedestrians who break the rules!?" inert.
Another example: It is one thing when a motorcyclist decides to weave through cars in congested traffic ... A pedestrian can hear that approaching and, in my experience, motorcyclists do not think they have the right to ram into people. With a silent electric vehicle carrying your average entitled punk, the situation is different.
I have not seen one person operating such an electric vehicle who obeyed any rules. So, if there is a 19th century law that can be used to banish them, I support that.
You just don’t like the double-standard I’m defending.
- You're on a game show and your aim is to summarize my position in good faith
- If you get 70 out of 100 impartial observers to agree that your summary is a fair reading of my comments, then you get $100 thousand
- If fewer than 70 out of 100 agree, then you get nothing
- Do you think you'd still write down, "[I]t sounds like [he is] claiming it is OK for people on electric vehicles to slam into pedestrians in pedestrian crossings because a lot of people have died in accidents involving cars"?
Integrity is coming up with the same summary when there's no money on the line as you would on that game show.
> […] or shall play at Football or any other Game on any Part of the said Highways, to the Annoyance of any Passenger or Passengers […]
> The introduction of the fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible cyclists who sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of traffic and who show consideration to other pavement users when doing so. Chief police officers, who are responsible for enforcement, acknowledge that many cyclists, particularly children and young people, are afraid to cycle on the road, sensitivity and careful use of police discretion is required.
Pavements are for people, if you want to ride on it that is fine, but you have no right of way over people on foot.
The carriage law should not be removed outright but amended similarly while making it clear it's not ok to make pavements dangerous for pedestrians.
> If any person shall wilfully ride upon any footpath or causeway by the side of any road made or set apart for the use or accommodation of foot passengers; or shall wilfully lead or drive any horse, ass, sheep, mule, swine, or cattle or carriage of any description, or any truck or sledge, upon any such footpath or causeway; or shall tether any horse, ass, mule, swine, or cattle, on any highway, so as to suffer or permit the tethered animal to be thereon.
It seems like a step forward was made almost two centuries ago. Let's not take a step back.
Personally, there’s a risk level that I’m content with living with and scooters on the pavement are beneath that.
Similarly sidewalks are narrow and meant for pedestrian capable ranges of motion and speeds. I lean towards 'legalize electric scooters on the streets keep them the off the pavement unless the operator is disabled'.
That extra speed makes them scary and dangerous, and the people riding them never seem to be considerate of the people they’re sharing the sidewalk with. Not quite as bad as bicycles on the sidewalk, but approaching the same category.
IMO we should be repurposing roads not aggressively to make room for cyclists and other modes of transportation like scooters.
If scooters are too slow to be safe in the bike lane, make an additional scooter lane and remove some free automobile storage on public property - which is not in fact a birthright.
Also, everything that has an engine does not belong in the pedestrian zone.
I think re bikes on the sidewalk, I'm mostly in favor of a maximum speed limit for sidewalks, as well as general rules regarding if the sidewalk is full of people. I am a cyclist though in a US city with a load of "share the road" signs but few bike lanes and shitty drivers, so I find the sidewalk is safe in certain parts, and of course, no one walks in the US. I walk much less nowadays because I find it's safer for me if I bike.
The only thing close to a close call I had in three days was a kid running out from around the corner of a building. I was able to stop in time, but to be fair I was in a roadway, not on a sidewalk, and I had slowed because I saw a blind corner coming up. A bicycle or car would have had a harder time stopping than I did, for that matter.
I also got to see a guy clothesline himself on a tree limb in Westwood. That looked like it hurt.
In contrast, in Sweden you would not need a drivers license for them, however due to the cycling infrastructure they would very likely be safe, people already drive petrol based mopeds on the cycling infrastructure with no license and do not get into accidents.
So I would argue that such devices would “live with the bikes” on any cycle infrastructure that exists, but otherwise on the roads. I wouldn’t enjoy sharing a walk path with a motor vehicle, nor would I enjoy riding an electric scooter on the road.
I feel like we should be pushing for more cycle ways if we want to be able to use this type of thing safely.
People did treat them mostly like bikes. Bikes aren't allowed on the sidewalks either, but that's where many people ride them.
Pedestrian: 6KM/h bicycle: 18KM/h City scooters: 24 KM/h Fast city scooters: 42 KM/h Cars: 48 KM/h (50KM)
Unsure if 12, 30 and 36 must get a new category. For 12, niche electric vehicles usually are around that speed (e.g. mobility scooters, electric toys)
I ride in the bike lanes and am faster than most bicyclists. I also feel safer as I am standing up and more easily visible to vehicles.
With all this being said, I avoid sidewalks as I don't think anything with wheels besides wheelchairs and strollers should be on sidewalks. I also biked for years on the streets and have a lot of experience. I don't think putting these things everywhere is a good idea unless we get rid of more cars.
Too many people are inexperienced with safely riding and it's way too convenient to jump on one and become a nuisance to others. I'm not sure what the answer is, though. Maybe people with enough time on Divvy bikes (our bike share system) get first dibs?
I find it very difficult to believe that there are enough vehicles and lanes to have a separate bike and scooter lane and still have room for cars and pedestrians.
Besides which bikes and scooters are similar enough to share a lane.
The real pathology here is that we allow automobiles to pass so freely through anywhere lucky enough to have over-crowded sidewalks.
One can imagine a quieter, safer, more humane Midtown Manhattan in which scooters and bicycles and pedestrians coexist in harmony.
Instead one experiences the insane and constant honking of frustrated drivers, who, like a baby who doesn’t know why it cries, demand that their problems require the attention of your ears, too.
Even in densest foot traffic there you'll find a bicycle navigating safely between people or even full sized scooter. At first it looked bonkers for me but aftr few month it became natural as pedestrian and even as a cyclist.
Instead we have Vehicle Excise Duty, VED, which is a tax on emissions. Which is why electric vehicles pay no VED.
Scooters can't because they are throttle operated, there is a problem with the law in this regard.