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> even including social benefits, the salary is 2 to 3 times less

Yea... no.

Especially if you factor in the cost of life.

Edit: Average salary in SF for tech workers is $142k vs $56k in Paris [1].

Once adjusted for cost of living, Paris is roughly 86k$ [1].

Now, you add all the social benefits, like free health care, retirements etc. And if you have/plan on having children, you can add free education as well.

All in all it's very far from 2-3 times lower.

[1] https://hired.com/state-of-salaries-2018

French working for an American company. Yes.

Yea sure, and a French working for a Dubai-based company would make 5 times more, but that's not really representative of the average case is it?

30% of the french salary goes to social security and retirements.

American salaries are 2 to 3 times higher.

The cost of life is NOT twice higher.

Do the math.

Also remember we are talking about tech. Not all salaries.

> American salaries are 2 to 3 times higher. Cash in hand is 2 to 3 times higher, but compensation is not.

You need to include benefits such as company car, extra holidays (europe starts with 20 + unlimited sick days), 13th month (get paid twice on december), food stamps (around 8€ / working day), ...

And stock options can be part of the package on both side of the ocean. You should value them similarly.

> The cost of life is NOT twice higher. Rent is around twice higher in SF, and contributes for a significant portion of your total expense. Other expenses (leisure, culture, ...) is indeed more slightly more expensive in SF but not by a factor x2.

Absolutely. The free healthcare alone makes up for the lower salaries in France.

My friend is diabetic and in poor health, he would go broke if he lived in America and not Europe.

? if he/she was SW Eng. in SV ?

Not in tech. The difference it tech salary is bigger than for other fields. It's unusually low in France, and usually big in the US.

I mean, you can pay for amazing healthcare for yourself for 800 a month (10k a year) or a family (15k a year) in the US. And if you work for a big company they cover ablot of this. It's pretty easy to calculate in salaries, and doesn't bridge the gap between countries.

I'm not sure those "amazing healthcare" numbers are correct...

Man, I should really try to get that 13k € raise out of my employer! Just to point that average does not mean that every tech worker get that. And I'd bet that in Paris 56K$ is either very senior pay grade or management.

You can also add, among the benefits, the good network of public transport (even if some lines are overloaded).

> Just to point that average does not mean that every tech worker get that.

Well, no. That's the point of having an average.

Would be good to have stats for median salary as well

In my experience, €50k is pretty much middle-of-the road for software developers. That's what I had after ~2 years experience. Beginners get 40k out of college.

Freelancing is also a good option, with daily rates ~400-700€ depending on experience, you can make a much better living than a regular employee.

Bear in mind that that would be the rate charged to the client. In France you'll have to actually have a company of some sort and then you'll get some form of salary (either dividends or actual salary).

The ballpark for your actual cash in hand, assuming no other costs for the company, would be whatever you charge divided by two (social security isn't actually free).

Of course, some things can be expensed, which is a huge advantage, for example a company car or motorbike, a laptop, etc). But it's not entirely free if you use them on your personal time, theoretically you have to pay income tax on some of the object's value.

So the numbers are, considering 220 working days a year (which is probably optimistic, because you have to budget some days to find and develop new leads, plus vacation, sick days, etc):

400 € / day = 88 000 / year => 44-45 000 after tax

Another thing to bear in mind is landlords and banks have a strong preference to rent / lend to people with a stable, long-term contract (CDI). As a freelancer, especially in the beginning, you'll probably encounter quite a few of them who won't want to do business with you. Plus, being a foreigner won't help.

Source: I'm doing the freelance thing.

A couple things... salary is a small part of overall compensation. A 10% or more cash bonus is the minimum as well as some equity (which may or may not be worth something).

Health care is also free for most tech workers or if not free, a blip on the radar. I think I pay $40 a month for amazing healthcare (and I'm in SoCal not in the Bay).

>Plus you can buy actual tomatoes and not red plastic balls.

That's an important perk.

CA has amazing farmers markets.

And in Paris too you need to look around for a place that will sell you good tomatoes. An average supermarket will just have the tasteless red water balls from the Netherlands, at least for 11 months out of the year.

> red water balls from the Netherlands

This was true in the nineties, but due to dropping revenues (especially in Germany) has been corrected by Dutch farmers since then.

Dutch tomatoes are of the highest quality now.

I was writing from repeated recent experience, the last from a week ago when I didn't have time to go to a better place to get tomatoes. Your mileage or taste may vary.

Depending on the preferences Paris can be a pretty poor city or the best city in the world. I clearly fall into the first category. Living 'intramuros' is very expensive when adding the fact that salaries are not on part with major tech hubs. The city is dirty, very polluted (2nd worst area in Europe by air pollution after Moscow - don't have the reference link though), people are rude, and everything so cramped it makes you feel claustrophobic.

Agreed. But I'll take Paris over the valley any day.

Please give me any example of a major world city where living 'intramuros' is cheap lol....

Salaries are on part with major tech hubs (NYC OR SF are WAY MORE EXPENSIVE than paris and salaries match at the end)

Paris is the 15th most polluted city in europe and not the 2nd...

"People are rude" - is a generalization and racism toward parisians. plus if you feel like everyone is rude start asking yourself some questions man....

Plus in terms of dirty you never lived in SF or NEW York or any part of China I guess.

To any american, people in Paris will feel rude. To any russian, they will feel over friendly.

It's not racism, it's just social expectations clashing.

But yeah, try to live in Manhattan...

Ha—as a Russian-American, I guess that explains why it felt just right!

I did not say other tech hubs would be nicer to live in, as I could not compare (apart from London). It's just the experience I had living in Paris. By expensive I meant expensive when adjusted with the relatively-low salaries. In the end the only way to know, as parent comment said, is to try the experience. I just stated what I feel is not an uncommon opinion.

Prague, Berlin ? Both are good tech hubs.

Ehh I just left Paris after visiting for a few days. Not that I bought fruits and veggies there, but I found the restaurant scene to be very average. The bistros are all indistinguishable from each other, pretty expensive (probably 25 euros for an entree and a drink), and very mediocre quality. I know you were talking about grocery store produce but a CA area farmers market is probably higher quality than an analogous one there too.

I’ve had way tastier fruits and veggies at a random Parisian street market than at any of the Bay Area farmers markets I’ve been to.

>but remotely work for an American company

How can one find something like this?

You apply to any american job like you are next to them. And once they get interested, you negociate.

You will have a way higher fail rate than usual. But they really, really need good devs, and they are getting more rare and expensive, so some agree.

> the salary is 2 to 3 times less

so it’s negative?

Rule of thumb is that half the salary amount (e.g. 120k USD to 60k EUR) in Paris will get you about the same or better quality of life as you have in NYC or SF, once you account for differences in how real estate, taxes, healthcare, and retirement work.

For the retirement bit, that's assuming that France's 110% of GDP debt or so won't balloon in the future and pensions won't be slashed by the time your retire.

Yeah... I wouldn't count on retirement too much.

Nope. I currently work for an American company. They pay me 144k euros (before taxes). This include retirements and social security.

Same job in France would be 65k if I negotiate REALLY well.

I don't know any dev doing 120K USD (105k EURS)__as a salary in Paris. I doubt there are many. If you want to make this figures, you need to be a freelancer, which means no job safety, looking for clients, and paying for social security and requirements yourself.

French salaries for dev are in the 30k to 70k depending of your level. 70k is rare. You need to be good. To be able to negotiate or have a rare skill.

However 120K USD is not rare in the US. I had proposals for 220k.

No, he is saying that if you make 120k USD in SF, you can have the same quality of life with 60k euros in Paris, not that 120k$ == 60k euros.

$120k in SF is considered poverty level. And 60k Euros in Paris is nowhere close. 60k means you don't just get by you actually can live. I know because I have.

Yes, you will be paid much less.

But you will stay less hours at the office as well.

And you'll get way more time off.

Also you get to go to the Fontainebleau forest, eat to the "Pates vivantes" in the 9e, and can just walk to buy stuff most of the time. Or roller skate.

I believe they were unhelpfully commenting on your grammar.

They read "2 to 3 times less" as "-200% to -300%" instead of "33%-50%".

Ah :) Well, french and all that.