What the interns have wrought, 2018 edition | Hacker News Reader

What the interns have wrought, 2018 edition

blog.janestreet.com

190 pointsyminsky132 comments

Kudos to Jane Street for giving their inters what seems to be very interesting projects and for publicly acknowledging their work.

It would be cool to start seeing more of this from other companies. Also, I wonder if anyone has done an extensive cost-benefit analysis of using OCaml instead of a more common language. It seems like the training and cost of always needing to build your own frameworks would be exceptionally high.

Why "exceptionally" high? The programmers you are hiring are (or should be!) bright, they learn new things fast, and OCaml is not very difficult to learn.

At any software company you have to learn new things. Every company has its internal development stack and custom software, unless the company literally isn't a software company at all or is doing something so unoriginal and dull that you wouldn't want to work there.

>>> and [any language] is not very difficult to learn.

I'm all for training and learning, but pretending that anything can be picked up quickly and easily is just wrong, especially in a trading environment.

Any typo or bug is going to cost millions of dollars, it's very hostile to newcomers. They will be struggling enough to learn about finance and the company.

> Any typo or bug is going to cost millions of dollars

Good job they're using a language and other techniques which ensure that bugs are caught early, often at compile time.

yeah... no. only certain tupes of bugs.

a compiler can’t catch a bug if you calculate interest rates incorrectly, for example.

That is what unit tests are for.

Minsky is on record as saying they have a maniacal bent for code review & code readability at Jane Street.

That needs to be written in unit tests and also needs to be code reviewed. Also such bugs can be brought into the system by experienced devs as well.

Building your own libraries is often extremely costly and not cost effective.

Building your own frameworks usually saves some time at the beginning, but the costs usually outweigh the benefits later on.

Sorry to be pedantic, but the distinction between libraries and frameworks is important, in my opinion.

It seems like the training and cost of always needing to build your own frameworks would be exceptionally high

It is purely a matter of volume - are you doing enough business to make it worthwhile?

The last company I worked for had in-house database, programming language, IDE for that language, version control system, job scheduler... At the time they started doing that there was nothing available that did what they needed, and even now, their stack does things that I'm not sure I've seen outside, tho' 10 years on it's less clear that it would be worth starting a project like that from scratch now.

Remember, in business, there are no concepts of "cheap" or "expensive", there is only "worth it" or "not".

> There is, as you can imagine, a lot of ground to cover. With 45 interns between our NY, London and Hong Kong offices, there were a lot of exciting projects.

Wait, we're leaving the defense of our realm against mystical incursion to interns?

I would watch that movie.

You should consider Charles Stross' 'Laundry Files' series then!

I can second that recommenadation.

Ever use Kerberos? >=)

That's 1 dog - they have 3 offices to defend.

Kerberos. Not your usual guard dog.

What tech interns do at trading companies, especially JS, always amazes me. Not because of the complexity of the problem domain but rather the rigor of the solution.

Something like Tristan Hume's famous blog post [0] on Tree Diffing would be unthinkable at Amazon, or most likely even Google or FB. If it's for internal use, they'd just slap together whatever works and looks nice, test the crap out of it and launch (part 2 optional). Nobody would want to spend weeks minimizing the white space like this, especially over 5 weeks.

I know multiple people who have interned at Trading companies - all making more than $9k a month - working on optimizing React rendering for tables. They have solutions that are amazing and wonderful because they are superior engineers and computer scientists than mere mortals like me, but for the problem space it seems pretty ridiculous.

I know people who have done crazy stuff that has gone into production during their Google, Facebook, or even lesser companies like Amazon internships but were compensated a fraction ($6k a month at Amazon vs. $10k a month at JS). I guess this is the dollar value difference of prestige.

[0]: http://thume.ca/2017/06/17/tree-diffing/

  > I know multiple people who have interned at Trading companies
  > - all making more than $9k a month - working on
  > optimizing React rendering for tables. They have
  > solutions that are amazing and wonderful because
  > they are superior engineers and computer scientists
  > than mere mortals like me, but for the problem space
  > it seems pretty ridiculous.

This is interesting to me. What companies are you referring to?

I can't be too specific given how few of these there are (lol), but think on the level of Jane Street, Jump Trading, 2 Sigma and 5 Rings.

I worked at one of the above and can confirm that the interns, particularly the R&D interns were producing truly excellent work at the forefront of their respective fields, particularly with the mentorship of the senior staff. I'm serving a 1 year non-compete at the moment, and the only thing I find myself actually missing is the internal colloquia for some of the in-house projects and research.

It's very, very cool of Jane Street to publish some of these details. All the firms are doing approximately all of the same things tech-wise, so I think Jane Street might get a leg up on the next batch of recruits just for being willing to give them some public credit.

Yup! One of my friends is at Jump right now, and I had to stop talking to him because he makes $10k a month while I make $8k in my full time job (never even got an interview there...)

I really wish I was born with the raw intellect to do cool stuff like this.

If it makes you feel any better, there was no particular shortage of idiots there either, just like any other place.

Oh no doubt! But I'd rather be a well paid and connected idiot than a poorly paid smart person.

> But I'd rather be a well paid and connected idiot than a poorly paid smart person.

As an aside, this is always an interesting thought experiment.

I read an example in John Carreyrou's Bad Blood (Theranos expose) recently:

"Several members of the Frat Pack joined Greg and two of his colleagues from the engineering department for lunch on the big terrace overlooking the parking lot one day. A discussion about the low IQs of some of the world’s top soccer players led them to debate the question, Would you rather be smart and poor or dumb and rich? The three engineers all chose smart and poor, while the Frat Pack voted unanimously for dumb and rich. Greg was struck by how clearly the line was drawn between the two groups. They were all in their mid-to late twenties with good educations, but they valued different things."

Yup, I remember that bit too - I found myself agreeing with the Duke group as well. I grew up pretty upper middle class but I am absolutely poor compared to the circle Holmes' family was in, and I grew up pretty smart but definitely stupid compared to the circles she was in at Stanford. Its far easier to make a comfortable living off of a trust fund and family connections than actually having to move up the ladder at even Google.

Wait, are you complaining about making 8k/mo? Mate I think you need to chillax. Unless you have a big family to support, making more will not change your life to a significant degree. Money is great, but it's not sufficient for happiness.

>Money is great, but it's not sufficient for happiness.

I'm pretty skeptical of this idea. Money yields freedom and experiences (that I currently don't have).

It's absolutely wild to read a comment like this as someone on about $800 a month (or about $600USD/mo.) I guess it's all relative.

I pay $2.9k a month in rent and utilities.

I'm also going to take a wild guess and say you're working on a graduate stipend or aren't in the US.

> $2.9k That's your choice though right? I know people in Seattle, SF, and NY who pay both less and more than that. I know many people who get tech jobs and then jump to an expensive car and apt, but there are other options--personally I choose to live more simply and save boat-loads of money because I like the idea of "FIRE". No one is forcing you to spend so much. Sure making more is fun and handy, but spending less is also an option.

Anyways, good luck on your dreams :)

I'm a journalist (although currently transitioning out of that.) Predominantly freelance right now but even as a full-time editor my salary topped out at $40k (before tax etc.)

I understand what you're saying; that's the intuitive interpretation that most people have. But the research doesn't back that up.

There are a number of studies on the matter: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=money+and+happiness+study . Money makes you happier, but only to a point and with quickly diminishing returns. Once you're basic needs are met, you need to work on other areas of your life, like social relationships, to find happiness, not just making more money.

Also look up "Hedonic Treadmill"; human psychology is such that we get used to what makes us happy faster than we expect. You think 150k will make you happy? Once you make that it does make you happy! But then a few months later, it's like "eh whatever".

I think you need to learn to enjoy your own life. Money doesn’t buy you everything you think it does. Happiness comes from within

> and I had to stop talking to him because he makes $10k a month while I make $8k in my full time job I don't know what to say to get through to you, but this kind of thinking is holding you back more than intellect, connections or anything else.

It really sounds like you worship these kinds of companies and the people who work there. Hopefully it’s not too personal, but the grass might not be greener on the other side. I grew up in a relatively wealthy family, with extended family coming from poorer backgrounds - and they were just as happy as us. At the end of the day it’s up to you if course, I’d just recommend reflecting on what about those companies/people truly is aspirational besides hot “job prospects.”

I spend too much of my day looking at the LinkedIns and Instagrams of my friends and peers who are at "top companies".

1) They all have legitimate accomplishments. They have USAMO/USACO medals, chess trophies, ISEF distinctions, National Merit Scholarships, multiple research papers, etc. Because of this they are all interesting people and have significant pedigree, even if some of them went to similar schools as me.

2) Almost all of them seem to be very photogenic and have wide friend groups who do expensive activities with them (flying, skydiving, Europe trips, skiing, traveling to Thailand, flying to Colorado for the weekend to hike, etc). Even when they're not spending money they're still doing cool stuff, like going to expensive company events or traveling in business class to events.

3) Their friend groups are also accomplished, highly pedigreed individuals. Meanwhile I moved to a new city without knowing anyone now that my intern cohort moved to better and more impressive companies.

They all have the money to do anything they want without any real fear, whereas I do not. I don't have their wide friend groups at my company, and the lifestyles of the people at my company are decidedly "normal" because of my peers' advanced ages and differing priorities (many have kids and didn't go to elite schools).

This perspective is bullshit. You can do anything you want, without real fear, no matter who you are. There's a panoply of literature to help you change your mindset. Seek it out.

> They all have the money to do anything they want without any real fear, whereas I do not. I don't have their wide friend groups at my company, and the lifestyles of the people at my company are decidedly "normal" because of my peers' advanced ages and differing priorities (many have kids and didn't go to elite schools).

This is an excuse. I am not anything like the friends you described, and I have a wide circle of friends, and do exactly what I want in life. So does everyone I call a close friend. They all come from completely different backgrounds. It took years of hard work to get here. Start now.

Sorry for the off-topic post in this thread, but I think it's deeply important to refute this kind of thinking. Don't waste your life.

Well, for one thing they can do it at 22, with no constraints on the function they're optimizing. Their hard work was done in 4 years of undergrad and 4 years of high school. I thought I did OK - but apparently I didn't, and now I have another 8-12 years to even begin to be in the same position they're in right now. I'm way, way way behind.

This is the sort of race where once you get to the end, you realize you were racing against yourself. Stop comparing your blooper reel to their highlight reel. It's not healthy. I guarantee there are people envious of your life.

“Comparison is the death of joy.” (Mark Twain)

> This perspective is bullshit. You can do anything you want, without real fear, no matter who you are.

Well, that perspective doesn't seem any more convincing.

There are many factors to success: intelligence, character traits, hard work, money, luck. Each of them plays an important role. Each of them can, to some degree, be substituted by more of something else.

There is a huge difference whether you have or don't have a safety net. You can of course simply take a risk, but that by definition works only for a subset of people who try it.

sadamznintern, are you Asian by any chance? Because I'm Chinese, and I feel that this "comparison" sort of mindset has been ingrained into me since I was born and I've struggled to ignore it my whole life. It most likely came from hearing the sort of reverence my dad would have for people that made it (hold an Ivy League degree, become a doctor/lawyer/banker/someone of prestigious esteem, have FU money, etc.), and the sort of resentment he held for himself not having made it, and projected onto me. I flunked out of the best university in my city/province, and imagine how angry he was that I ended up in a community college (to him, lack of prestige signal = trash). Its the same mindset/attitude that holds a sort of disdain for arts majors, any occupation that doesn't spell out long-term stability and financial capability. I also found myself not really respecting someone off the bat unless I saw that they went to a proper brand-name school on LinkedIn, and while I know its irrational, the feelings are still triggered. Its pretty unhealthy black-or-white thinking, which tends to make one judge and tyrannize oneself.

Imagine the rude awakening and cognitive dissonance I've had over the years as I've met people who barely went to school but were way better programmers than I am.

I am Asian. Ironically my parents aren’t like me at all about this. They’re pretty relaxed and they would have been fine with me going anywhere as long as I was “happy”.

The opportunity to rigorously work on the best solution to a problem was probably my favourite part of Jane Street's engineering culture. They really care about taking your time to do things right rather than getting things hacked together as soon as possible. This means that all the code you touch is very well designed and the systems are all pretty great, it's quite awesome.

Yeah, no doubt! Mere mortals like me can't even imagine what that would be like however.

Where the interns paid, at a market rate? This seems like legal documentation demonstrating that they were working on core development for the firm. So without fair pay, that is illegal is it not?

Of course they were fairly paid. Probably at least 80k/yr amortized for their work. At least that is how it happens at every other big tech company, and I'm sure if you can intern at jane street you can intern at amazon et al.

Interns at Jane Street can be paid nearly $10,000 per month.

Jane Street pays interns a little more than $60/hr. Pretty competitive. Definitely in line with unicorns and big tech ($50/hr @ FB and AirBnb, $45 @ Apple, etc)

Airbnb is ~$40 an hour but they have unlimited overtime.

From what I've heard Apple starts at $38 an hour.

FB isn't hourly, it's $8k a month.

Amazon is $7.725k a month or $7.2k if you take corporate housing. It's more in California and NYC - $8.4k a month, or $7.9k if you take corporate housing.

I was told Amazon interns also had to pay $300/mo for not particularly nice corporate housing in the UW dorms. My understanding was this was in additional to the salary reduction.

Nope, its only a salary reduction. In addition, they get a "husky card" with a daily stipend for on-campus dining hall/food court meals/gym entrance etc - a few friends of mine took it and they said the value of the husky card was more than $300 if they spent all of it.

Also, UW Dorms are only for summer interns. Off cycle interns live in 1 bedroom apartments in SLU. They're really nice with a $500 salary reduction.

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