edit to add, I'm not sure you can call the Canadian trail a copy of "the nordic system" but it is similar to it in that it focuses on rehab rather than punishment. I like to think you could adapt from "the nordic system" to make it work in the us.
edit to add, I'm not sure you can call the Canadian trail a copy of "the nordic system" but it is similar to it in that it focuses on rehab rather than punishment. I like to think you could adapt from "the nordic system" to make it work in the us.
And of course those rates are just within 3 years. They get much higher over time. The US is relatively unique in that we have a relatively large population of individuals that seem to resist all efforts at stopping them from engaging in crime. This is not really a problem in places like Scandinavia. The absolute and utter failure of rehabilitation driven systems further emphasizes the difference. For further statistics and information on various sorts of data related to prison, prisoners, recidivism, and so on you check out the Bureau of Justice Statistics [2]. Their page is loaded with all the information you could ever want.
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In my opinion the major problem is once a culture develops around criminality it becomes practically impossible to detach the criminality from the culture, as resisting reform becomes part of the culture. I grew up in this very culture and it's quite clear that people talking about reformation just have not been around this very much at all. Prison is not seen as game over. It's just another part of the game, and prison time is worn as a badge of honor once people are out, as it shows how 'hard' they are, and gains instant respect.
For instance have you ever thought about how completely idiotic resisting arrest is? You're not going to do anything except add years to your sentence, and get either beat down or killed in the process of it. But the reason people do this is again because it shows how 'hard' they are. You or I might be thinking 'Well how can I minimize my prison time and get back to real life?' so we would never behave this way, and then engage in all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to explain why somebody else would. But the issue is that we're not part of this culture, and to understand why things the way they are you really have to live through it. In that culture prison is just a regular part of what we'd call 'real life' so this sort of loss minimization calculus simply does not exist.
The more important question then is where did this culture come from, how did it emerge and spread, and how could that be stopped in the future? But that's an entirely different topic.
[1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/25/nyregion/pennsylvania-stu...
[2] - https://bjs.gov/
If someone grabs your wrist and yanks you off balance - guess what, you're probably going to try to resist them if only to not fall over. Likewise humans are not perfectly rational beings - if someone runs towards you and you're already scared, you're going to start to run. This isn't because you somehow played out a competent mental calculus on your chances of escaping, it's because you're an animal with instincts.
Hell, this effect is counted on in martial arts - if you want someone to move, push them the opposite way.
The issue is that "resisting arrest" has grown to be a vague charge that encapsulates everything from people outright fighting police officers to people who are scared and trying to not get knocked off balance.
And these hypotheticals are part of the mental gymnastics I mentioned. This isn't to say that your hypotheticals have not happened, but if they do happen they represent an incredibly tiny fraction of all incidents - whereas you are implicitly suggesting they make up some meaningful percent of incidents. It's like somebody charged with breaking and entering who somehow genuinely thought he was getting into his own house after having forgot his keys. I'm sure that's probably happened, but that says absolutely nothing about the very near 100% of cases where this is not what happened.
In this comparison, the virtue of each institution has been blindly discarded in favor of highlighting the substantial failures of both. That is -- "Because both institutions have failed at achieving their intent, neither institution appears to be capable of achieving a good result."
If we were to include the virtue designated by each approach then it should be clear to see the short term & long term differences between incarceration and rehabilitation.
> And of course those rates are just within 3 years. They get much higher over time.
Albert Einstein is widely credited with saying, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”
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In response to the opinion you've stated:
> In my opinion the major problem is once a culture develops around criminality it becomes practically impossible to detach the criminality from the culture, as resisting reform becomes part of the culture.
In response to the assertion you've made:
> Prison is not seen as game over. It's just another part of the game, and prison time is worn as a badge of honor once people are out, as it shows how 'hard' they are, and gains instant respect.
And in response to the questions you've raised:
> The more important question then is where did this culture come from, how did it emerge and spread, and how could that be stopped in the future?
Reformation as an act is a change of system and not a change in culture. Reformation will lead to a favorable cultural shift if and only if the system effectively addresses the needs of the individuals within the culture.
1. Anything less than reformation is utter neglect. 2. Accompanying neglect is malnutrition. 3. Cultures don't develop with criminality as an end all be all. Cultures develop with nutrition as an end all be all.
> The US is relatively unique in that we have a relatively large population of individuals that seem to resist all efforts at stopping them from engaging in crime.
What "population of individuals" are you talking about?
> This is not really a problem in places like Scandinavia.
Why do you think this isn't a problem in places like Scandinavia? What is different about Scandinavia?
> In my opinion the major problem is once a culture develops around criminality it becomes practically impossible to detach the criminality from the culture, as resisting reform becomes part of the culture.
What is an example of a culture which is attached to criminality?
> But the issue is that we're not part of this culture, and to understand why things the way they are you really have to live through it. In that culture prison is just a regular part of what we'd call 'real life' so this sort of loss minimization calculus simply does not exist.
What culture are you talking about? Which people are part of this culture?
Your comment clearly has a point of view which stated plainly would make it hard to defend. Dog-whistling.
currently, the american judicial/penal system seems to have the opposite effect. I dare say a underlying factor has to do with prisons being profit-driven, which is essentially a incentive for them to not rehabilitate inmates (cause then they wouldn't have repeat "customers"!)
you say yourself that it's different in Scandinavia. Why is it so? the culture is different, sure, but not THAT different. We do have criminal gangs here, though to a lesser extent to be sure. how come?
I suggest the reason to be that rehabilitation of criminal works, whereas incarceration does not. There is some data to support this idea, albeit not enough to be conclusive. it would certainly be very interesting to see such trails carried out with american inmates in any scale.
And so I think what is the difference there is the million dollar question. And the worst part is that it's not even consistent with nations themselves. For instance in checking out some recidivism rate data [1] it turns out that we have things like a recidivism rate of 23% in Oregon while it's 61% in Minnesota. That datum runs also runs in stark contrast to the person who responded while projecting his prejudiced views. Minnesota demographics [2]. Oregon demographics [3]. On the gang issue, to reemphasize I think that's a product of this sort of culture rather than this sort of culture being a product of gangs. So gangs are a subset but not the issue in and of themselves.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4472929/
[2] https://suburbanstats.org/population/how-many-people-live-in...
[3] https://suburbanstats.org/population/how-many-people-live-in...
A huge issue in this realm is halfway houses largely operate without much oversight and often fail to actually provide structure and support for inmates and end up being just a place to dump them. I recall one researcher who visited many saying "we are paying for them to watch Jerry Springer."
Halfway houses cost less and have similar recidivism rates.
Norway doesn't have a network of violent gangs sitting in their prisons.
> I'm not sure you can call the Canadian
Canada is mostly on the path to copy US when it comes to gang violence.
Is this something that allows them to have a rehabilitative prison system, or something that is caused by having a rehabilitative prison system?
I do not see any evidence that gangs have anything to do with being immigrants. I think gangs have something to do with a culture having an underclass.
Obviously, you have this idea that when black people form a gang, they are bad, but when white people form a gang, well, it’s because of the black people forcing them to form a gang.
Sorry, but further refuting of this kind of reasoning is beneath me. I see you very clearly for what you are and for the propaganda and disinformation you are trying to spread.
I'm not saying your wrong or anything, I don't know, just you don't have a an argument that's even a tiny bit convincing.
You're also getting into "chicken or egg" territory.
You should really look at the numbers. The rape rate in the US is 17X Canada. Murders 3X. And the US age of criminal responsibility is SIX?! [2] It's pretty clear whatever system you advocate for isn't working.
[1] https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/7-charts-that-tell-the-s...
[2] http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/Unit...
[1] DEFINITION: The age at which a person is no longer excluded from criminal liability. The lowest age is indicated for countries where there isn’t a single age limit, for example where different states have different regulations (such as the USA) or there is different limits for boy and girls (such as in Iran). The spectrum is specifically wide for the USA and Mexico (both 6-12 years). Several US states do not stipulate any minimal age for criminal responsibility at all.
[1] https://www.momjunction.com/articles/gift-ideas-for-6-year-o...
Editing since I can't reply: I may have misread your reply to mine, I reacted because in my mind, that there's a range or discretion is irrelevant because it's so far out there in the first place. Cleaned it up to be less pointed, to better line up with my intent and hopefully yours.