Comment by judofyr | Hacker News Reader

Comment by judofyr | Hacker News Reader

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> The article brings absolutely no new information to the table.

Did you read the paper? It's not a paper that "brings new information to the table", it's a paper which presents recent experiments and tries to show that there is little scientific evidence of loss aversion.

> The basic principle behind loss aversion is simple.

Huh? I don't understand what you're saying? You're saying that "loss aversion" is simple, but then you give examples of losses not being universally more impactful than gains? What you're describing here is exactly the point of the authors: Both modes are important

> … swayed more by greed or by fear.

And you should be aware that "loss aversion" is very careful to not talk about the psychological process behind. Loss aversion is not about greed, fear or any feeling and/or instinct. Loss aversion is a measurable effect. None of the papers that claim that loss aversion is a general principle claims that "greed is stronger than love" or anything similar to that. In fact, they are very "chicken" and just shrug it away.

> Did you read the paper? … Huh? … you should be aware that …

I have no skin in this one but I would like to call this out: these comments make an argument combative. It pushes people up a tree and makes it hard to focus on the facts. Imagine user vezycash actually was swayed by your argument; how easy would it be for them to say, hey, you’re right? Pretty hard after all those comments, because it ties in their pride with their viewpoints and makes changing their point of view humiliating rather than enlightening. The conversation is now a battle, and admitting fault is losing face.

I’m calling this out now but by no means is it specific to you; it happens all the time. My request to anyone here is: please leave all those phrases out. “You should...”, “did you even...” etc. The argument works just as well without them. It makes it much easier for someone to say, hey, I guess you’re right! And isn’t that what we all want, in the end? ;)

Thanks.

Yeah, I see how this turns an argument combative and that wasn't my intention. I don't think there's anything wrong with vezycash's point of view, in fact I completely agree with most/all of his points :-)

There is something to be said about "Did you read the paper?" though. We have here an article where an author has published a rather large article (59 pages) and done a substantial amount of research (quoting over 80 other published papers). I don't expect everyone to read all of that, but I wish people were more upfront about whether they're talking generally about the topic or discussing the actual story.

Like, I honestly wonder "Did you read the paper?" not because I expect everyone to read the paper, but because it means we can have a more constructive discussion. If you haven't read the paper and is confused about what the author means then I can try to find quotations that better explain the author's opinion. Or maybe we can discuss the general topic (ignoring the story).

Agreed, especially when their point is that something is self-evident in the comments section of an article that specifically goes into great length to argue otherwise.

Could you post a link to the 59-page article you are referring to? Thanks

Just to back this up, 'don't imply that someone didn't read the article' is actually in the HN guidelines.

In this case, however, the person asked if the poster had read the underlying scientific paper - which is not the same as the linked popular press article. It's a legit question to help frame the discussion, though with tone issues that suggest a gentler way of asking would be helpful.

This comment should be printed out and hung in Times Square.

As complex as gravity and electricity are, the underlying principles are simple. Same with loss aversion. Money isn't the only or biggest motivator.

Take a good common example of loss aversion - admitting being wrong. Why do people find it difficult to admit that they are wrong?

What's at stake here? Reputation, respect, pride, even money.

100 scientists vs Einstein is a classic example of this. Pointless wars have been been fought because someone wouldn't admit being wrong. The Iraqi, Vietnam wars are good examples.

Your reaction to this issue is another.

Limiting loss aversion to just economic behavior betrays lack of understanding of the topic.

The arguments you made don't challenge what the article says one bit.

The loss aversion hypothesis is the hypothesis that given the choice between either of the following two scenarios:

  - Having an object x and then risk losing it.
  - Being offered an object x but risk not getting it.

people are more "motivated" by the first than by the second. The claim moreover is that:

  - This is a universal motivator, which means it must explain "economic behavior" (which you mention) as well as anything
 else. The fact that -- as the article says -- people prefer *keeping* a stock which is just as likely to lose in value as
 to gain, is a *perfect* example to illustrate that it is *not* a universal motivator.
  - That it is not rational. There are cases where losing something, like for instance money, is *truly* more damaging
 than gaining the equivalent amount of money. For example, if I lost $100,000 it would be much more devastating than if I
 gained $100,000 -- in this scenario, it's not a psychological *bias* but in fact a completely rational belief. This example
 is in the article. You can not use examples like this one to argue in favour of "loss aversion", because there would be no
 evidence of an irrational bias.

Also, the fact that you keep applying the "loss aversion" hypothesis as broadly as possible, to things like wars and arguments, suggests you're assuming it applies everywhere. What about the stock example, which is mentioned in the article? That ought to prove you wrong, no?

> What's at stake here? Reputation, respect, pride, even money.

Ego. People primarily lie to themselves, in order to retain the coherent (constructed) reality/continuity of their life. (c.f. cognitive dissonance)

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