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Comment by electrograv | Hacker News Reader

There’s a reason offices are air conditioned the way they are, trust me. While some of you lucky people can tolerate these temperatures comfortably, a significant percentage of the population sweats profusely in anything beyond 70 degrees Fahrenheit (I’m one of them).

Those of us who suffer from this would LOVE to trade places with the people who complain of the terrible effort of “putting on a sweater in the summer time” when it’s a bit too cool inside.

Unfortunately, we do not have the luxury of peeling off our skin when we are sweating uncontrollably in a 78F room, that some say is “not too hot”.

It’s important to recognize that humans are very diverse creatures, and office environments have to deal with the complex task of accommodating a wide range of physiologies.

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Do you think people were terribly uncomfortable at ambient temperatures due to their physiology before AC was invented?

In natural conditions, I'd expect people who sweat more to actually be more comfortable with natural airflow causing evaporative cooling. Unfortunately, in modern well sealed buildings with little air flow, this adaptation would be counterproductive.

It sounds like this building was an experiment aimed at rediscovering what a natural air flow would feel like in an office environment. I love my AC, personally, but I'd still be curious to see what 78 feels like in that building, it might not be so bad. I do enjoy working outside on the patio when it's warm out with a nice cool breeze.

> Do you think people were terribly uncomfortable at ambient temperatures due to their physiology before AC was invented?

Absolutely, unquestionably, YES! (Certainly for some people). Those sufficiently uncomfortable would migrate to climates better suited to their physiology, if their physiology didn’t adapt to the environment; for example, my ancestors were from extreme cold environments, and I am without a doubt FAR more comfortable in 50 degree F weather in a T shirt than I am in 70 degree weather. And to me with the right clothing, everything down to and even below freezing is quite pleasant.

Prior to much modern technology, just surviving and staying alive as a human was a miserable, painful experience.

We have it so, so good today, compared to our ancestors just a hundred years ago, let alone thousands. Virtually every measure of human suffering (extreme poverty, starvation, sickness, death, etc) is dramatically lowering with each generation.

It is a wonderful thing that modern advancements allows us to be comfortable, which then further frees our minds to pursue even greater and more wonderful endeavors.

> Do you think people were terribly uncomfortable at ambient temperatures due to their physiology before AC was invented?

Isn't that like asking "Do you think people were terribly uncomfortable using the outhouse in the middle of winter before indoor plumbing was invented?"

Uh, yeah. Life before AC, indoor plumbing, electricity, refrigeration, etc. sucked hard.

I lived in a cabin in Fairbanks, Alaska with no indoor plumbing and an outhouse. My wife is from Siberia and her house didn't have plumbing until the 90's. Going to the outhouse at 50 below in the middle of the night wasn't terribly uncomfortable, because I put on a jacket and gloves. A bit inconvenient, but not terrible.

Neither me or my wife feel like that lifestyle "sucked hard", although it certainly had challenges. Now we have a nice house in an affluent suburb and have plenty of luxuries, yet this lifestyle also has its challenges. Whether or not it sucks seems largely a matter of mindset and perspective.

A car not starting in slightly below freezing weather is a challenge. You’ll be hard pressed to find someone in the developed world who doesn’t think going to an outhouse at 50 below isn’t “sucking hard”. Without speaking for others, there isn’t any scenario I’d consider where running water and flush toilets aren’t available and within where I reside.

Having my car not start in Fairbanks was much, much more challenging than the outhouse. It took a lot of vigilance to make sure the battery stayed warm enough to hold a charge. I had to install heaters on my battery, engine, and transmission and remember to plug them in every single time I stopped the engine. If there was not a place to plug in, we left the car idling. If the car died, we were risking injury or even death from frostbite or hypothermia. That was a very serious challenge to have to deal with on a daily basis.

The outhouse, on the other hand, was almost zero maintenance. The only cleaning I had to do was occasional sweeping. It was nicely made from cedar wood with plenty of natural ventilation (no door), it never smelt terrible or felt disgusting. It takes a lot of work and money to make an indoor bathroom stay as nice as my outhouse was naturally.

I agree that you will find very many people in the developed world who think that going to an outhouse at 50 below would probably suck hard, but relatively few of them have first-hand experience so that's a hypothetical situation for them.

In Alaska you can certainly find plenty of people who voluntarily live this way. Not out of poverty or being a total recluse, but because the negative parts simply don't turn out to be as bad as it might seem before you've tried it, and the positive experiences associated with living closer to nature are deeply rewarding.

Do I care if "people were terribly uncomfortable at ambient temperatures due to their physiology before AC was invented?"... No, No I do not.

We have AC now, lets use it

I do not have the desire to Sweat all day every day in my office while I am attempting to use a computer or do my work

I do not have the desire to have my body be cooled by "natural airflow causing evaporative cooling" caused by my profuse uncomfortable and unsightly sweating over everything

I do not have the this desire, what I have a desire for is Air Conditioning, a modern convenience that human invented so we would no longer need to use "natural airflow causing evaporative cooling"

So do you just stay inside all day because of AC? I blast the AC all day long at the office, in the car, and at home, but on the weekend I feel like getting out! I like going for a hike, or on a bike ride, or going swimming. Yeah, I sweat, then a breeze hits and it feels awesome. This evaporative cooling business isn't total bullshit.

Not the person you asked but yes, yes I do.

For me anything above 21 C (~70 F) and sunny is uncomfortable miserable for me. I am serious. Everybody seems to enjoy the sunlight and talk about how depressed they get in the winters when it’s dark but I have the exact 100% opposite. During the summers I can’t go outside. Like, it’s not physically impossible and I can tolerate going outside long enough to walk to the store and so on, but the thought of “enjoying my time outside in the warm summer sun” elucidates the same thoughts that you’d get if I asked you to stick your hand inside a garbage disposal. I’m not even being hyperbolic right now. The thought of being outside when it’s sunny and 21+ degrees seriously shuts me down entirely. I’m basically depressed all summer and spring because of the sun, because of the temperature. I’m depressed because it means I cant go outside and enjoy the things I enjoy in the fall and winter: going on long bike rides, trail running, hiking and camping, etc.

For whatever reason, the moment the bright sun shines in my face or the first bead of sweat beads up on my body I just 100% shut down. Nothing is fun anymore. Nothing is enjoyable anymore.

I’ve spoken with several therapists to try to get some help with this and nothing people say or tell me has helped. It doesn’t help that everybody things I’m just being a big baby either.

But come fall and winter, I f-king love live. I love waking up before the sun rises and getting in a nice 30 minute run in the dark. I love getting into work when it’s dark and leaving work when it’s dark. I love walking around town or visiting nearby cities (Europe) in the winter because I’m not sweating the entire time. I love feeling the super cold wind hit me as I’m cycling long 20+ km rides. In the spring and summer I love being outside on the days when it’s overcast, gray, raining aka “depressing weather.” It doesn’t bother me at all. I love looking outside my office windows or my living room window and seeing gray clouds all day every day. In the winters I can wear T-shirt’s down to ~5 C, and I can wear just a hoodie and jeans down to the negatives as long as I have gloves.

I would love it if I could stand being in the sun, being in the warmth, but I can’t and I’ve tried. Like a lot of people have wrote: you can always wear more clothes. You can always light the place up. You can always use an umbrella. What can I do when it’s unbearbly hot and sunny and I’m already wearing shorts and a T-shirt? Absolutely nothing.

What are your thoughts on the environmental impact?

I separate all of my trash and recycle everything I’m able to. Food waste is composted. I haven’t used plastic bags in years and I’ve been asking for no straws since before it came into the news now. I don’t own a car. I ride my bike everywhere I’m able to and otherwise I take public transit. I’m a vegetarian for environmental reasons. I don’t own a clothes dryer because the sun works just as well.

As I said I think it’s wasteful especially cause I can’t seal my windows. But if you read my post then you’d see that my limit of caring stops when I’m sweating in my bed at 11pm at night because it’s still 30+ despite me being on the ground floor.

Thank you for your response. Not that I’m an arbiter or these things but I think you are perceptive of your impact and what you can do to minimize it to a much greater degree than most, and we’d all be better off if more of us in the developed world were as thoughtful.

Are you overweight?

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Which one?

For starters, "Be civil."

Sounds like you are a bit on the far end of the spectrum, but I can definitely relate. I tend to feel miserable too when it's getting too bright and warm.

I don't personally mind short warm bursts when I'm sitting in a sauna and getting a frigid soaking afterwards, but I do tend to sweat and it's really very annoying having to wear cloth during an office day that that are soaked - and my skin also hates me for it. I also tend to feel immediately miserable when I get direct sunshine on my head, which is why I tend to wear a hat - though that makes the sweating issue worse.

I kind of enjoy the time of my commute the most where I can set the AC as I please and put on some fairly dark driving sunglasses while listening to a book. Peaceful and comfortable time that is.

I also got a set of office glasses with some 50% shading and a blue light filter for those places that insist on 1500 Lumen/m2 brightness.

I concur about the lack of understanding of a lot of people for these issues. "Sun is good, stop whining" is really irritating. People are different, not every one likes ice cream, bright light/sun, waking up early, etc.

Thanks for taking the time to share your experience, it does help to understand and empathize with the breadth of human experiences.

I don't think the point of the building in this article was to force warmer temperatures on everybody. It sounded more like an experiment in increasing airflow. I think it would be most beneficial if they could work out a way to keep temperatures lower without sacrificing the air flow.

As an engineer, I firmly believe that innovation is driven through the process of starting with an experiment, discovering weak points, and steadily iterating to mitigate the weaknesses without sacrificing the advantages. But this process must be firmly grounded in a deep understanding of experiences of end-users who interact with the product, and the core objective should be improving quality of life, accounting for the variability in what that means to different people.

OK.

For the most part yes I stay indoors.. I do not like going for a hike, or a bike ride in the summer months when it is above 80 degrees out... This is one of the reasons gyms have all kinds of Stationary bikes, treadmills, etc so people do not have to be out in the heat while still being able to exercise..

Swimming well I am in cool water at the point does sweating is not really needed.

Further I am not in Business Causal attire when I am hiking, and hiking or other outdoor exercise is an activity where one is expected to be sweating, however in a office environment one is not expected to have sweat dripping from the face, have their shirt soaked in sweat, etc.

The specific Terry Thomas office build that's the topic of discussion is atypical, that's the point of the article. It sounds like they'd accommodate attire appropriate for the temperature... it's Seattle, wearing outdoor clothing to work is totally normal.

And we have a very mild climate, so it would only be this hot in late afternoon for a dozen days or so each year. On such days I'd just say "I'm uncomfortable so I'm going to WFH the rest of the day." I'm pretty sure that would be acceptable for this architecture firm. It's never been a problem that I leave work early due to traffic from baseball games near my downtown Seattle office, for example.

I totally understand that you have a different heat tolerance and physiological reaction to heat than I do. I'd go crazy exercising in a gym when it feels so much more stimulating overall to be outside, whereas mid-80's temperature with low humidity is just mildly unpleasant to me. But I respect that other's feel differently about it.

However, the difference between 78 and your ideal temperature is probably not so great, especially compared to many other parts of the country with much higher temps and humidity. I wouldn't entirely discount the possibility that this Terry Building might not be as uncomfortable for you as it sounds. And if it did turn out to be unbearably uncomfortable for you, I wouldn't discount the possibility of working together with your team and management to find an agreeable solution.

They say shorts etc are fine, but in the picture, I see a guy in a suit and tie. It's an architectural firm; do you want to meet customers with pitstains on your shirt? I'm sure some customers wouldn't mind, but most businesspeople who are looking for a firm expect a certain level of professional attire.

I see a guy with a shirt and tie, but no suit jacket. A few other people have long sleeve shirts. I couldn't speak for them as to whether they are uncomfortable and sweaty, but based on personal experience hiking with long sleeves to avoid sunburn, high quality shirts can be very breathable and comfortable at temperatures around 78-80.

I admit the possibility that this whole article is a puff piece meant as PR for this firm, and in reality they're all miserable inside but maintain a charade of happiness to hide from potential customers the fact that their heat chimney was in fact an engineering disaster.

The simpler explanation, which jibes with my personal experience as a longtime Seattleite, is that it's just not that big of a deal to do without AC here as long as its a relatively small building and you get the airflow right.

I dont think I ever stated my "ideal" temp, I stated what is tolerable to me as I am aware that I work in a building with others so compromise is a must

When I have my own office with my own AC Zone/Controls it would be set to 62 Degrees. That is a significant difference from 78.

My current office building has shared zones and sets the AC at about 73, it is bearable most days provided I do not need to do anything more than use my computer, even then I have a desk fan blowing air at me continually while at my desk. I am not however sweating or overly uncomfortable, the fan is able to mitigate 90% of my comfort.

However it does not take much physical work in that environment to push me over the edge in to sweating.

as to "accommodate attire appropriate for the temperature" the thing is some people might like wearing shorts, sandals, and a beach shirt to work, I do not even own these things. I don't wear suits, but I wear long pants, I wear a button down shirt and that is it. I do not believe an office environment should look like everyone is going to the beach. I am sure that is old fashioned thinking however, i believe Professionals should dress professionally.

I've worked in a number of professional environments, and attire ranged from steel-toed work boots and rugged clothes covered with mud, to full suit-and-tie, and a range of in-betweens (but never beach gear). So I never associated attire with professionalism per se, although it is important to wear something suitable to the task at hand.

What has not been so variable are things I'd consider more core aspects of professional behavior:

* caring deeply about customer needs and expectations, exercising grit, determination, and ingenuity to satisfy them

* understanding business concerns like cost management and delivering value to both investors and customers, striking a balance between competing demands

* understanding and caring about teammates, working effectively with a team to achieve above 2 objectives. maintaining a solution oriented mindset.

Here's how I might apply my interpretation of professionalism to the hypothetical situation that you were a capable coworker at Weber Thompson who felt uncomfortable due to the approximately 16 degree temperature excess on a hot day: propose partitioning off a space and installing air conditioning there for those who want it.

I don't see any inherent technical obstacles or insurmountable business concerns in that solution. It would balance the desires of some employees for connection with outside air, without causing discomfort to others who for one reason or another have a different preference. Customers might appreciate the flexibility to make the space suitable for a wider variety of preferences, and ask if we can do the same for them.

And the computers and displays aren’t helping - they’re little space heaters

Yes, of course. If you want to experience that, just go and work in China where many offices in the north lack AC and many in the south lack heat. Your productivity will simply plummet in either case (you can’t code very well with freezing fingers or sweaty arms). I think in the ost they just took the oroductivit hit in stride (well, white collar work wasn’t as common).

> Do you think people were terribly uncomfortable at ambient temperatures due to their physiology before AC was invented?

Yes, absolutely. I grew up without AC and now I jokingly tell my fiance my entire career has been motivated to ensure I maintain access to AC the rest of my life.

I grew up in a very cold place (MN) compared to most - the cold didn't matter much to me. I'm a t-shirt in 40 degree weather sort of guy. The hot summer months were absolute utter hell though, even with fans and sleeping in the basement/etc. To this day I think this had a huge effect on my sleeping patterns and thus other health problems later on in life.

I do think one of the elephants in the room is the obesity issue. I certainly have noticed I get a lot hotter with 40lbs extra on me. When the average American is overweight I'm sure this has moved the "herd preference temperature" down a couple degrees the past few decades.

American offices are always too cold for me, and I live in Norway. I often have to take a light pullover with me to the US even in the summer just to wear in the office when it is 40 C in the shade outside.

In Norway electricity is cheap and I have found that people heat their houses to higher temperatures than in neighboring countries during long cold time. But then lower office temperature is uncomfortable.

This is something that varies wildly with which part of the world you're in. For me, anything below 65F is "too cold" with 85 being a comfortable temperature.

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