Pilots who risk their lives flying tiny planes over the Atlantic | Hacker News Reader

Pilots who risk their lives flying tiny planes over the Atlantic

bbc.com

199 pointscurtis100 comments

My father did this at least once (maybe a couple of times?) in the 90s, ferrying twin engine aircraft to the newly formed Czech Republic. This was, as I understand it, to establish the first commuter airline in the country.

Long story short, halfway between the East Coast and Iceland one, and then both, engines cut out. They had just a couple of minutes to figure out what had gone wrong before they ditched. And given the temp of the water that was very likely to be a death sentence.

With less than 10k feet to go, they noticed the fuel tanks in the back were buckled inward. They weren't vented properly. A pocket knife solved the problem and a few seconds later the engines restarted.

SOP for ferrying a small plane across the Atlantic is to install "external" fuel tanks in the space normally used for passengers. Whoever installed them in Maine didn't vent them.

The punchline was that he and his copilot were (at the time) both smokers. After that ordeal, they both wanted nothing more than to light up. But the cabin was full of gas fumes, so lighting a lighter was likely to blow up the airplane.

>"With less than 10k feet to go, they noticed the fuel tanks in the back were buckled inward."

I'm confused what altitude were they at then that they had only 10K feet left? From the article:

>"Because most small light aircraft are unpressurised, it's not advisable to fly above 10,000ft."

Without supplemental oxygen. If they were much higher than that, they were probably breathing some sort of oxygen system.

Your parent mentioned these were planes for a commuter airline. So they were probably pressurized.

That's what I thought maybe as well but with a commuter airline plane could you fix a problem with the fuel takes with a pocket knife? The OP stated:

>"they noticed the fuel tanks in the back were buckled inward. They weren't vented properly. A pocket knife solved the problem"

This males me think it was something much smaller that would have fuel takes within arms reach or not much further away.

Op clarified it was a Cessna 421, so indeed pressurized. When these are ferried they put fuel tanks inside the cabin (these are called ferry tanks unsurprisingly), so they were indeed within arms reach.

Yeah I didn't see his edit until after I posted that. I've actually been on one these as part of a commercial "island hopper" flight. Cheers.

10000 feet is quite a lot from a pilot's perspective. In a glider, this is at least 50 minutes assuming a 200fpm minimum sink rate in stable clear air (no thermals), and in an airplane with a far less efficient wing it might be around 10 minutes (a decent rate of 1000fpm).

10 minutes sounds awfully short if you're on your way to ditch in ice cold water, and you have no idea why all your engines have stopped. :)

Primary training is done around 1500-3000 feet above ground, so you're expected to go through your troubleshooting checklist in less than a minute. If the engine failure is on takeoff or approach to land, which is the most common phase of flight for engine failure, you have tens of seconds for troubleshooting because you must leave spare time to get configured for an emergency landing. (CFII in a previous epoch.)

A Lance or Saratoga tend to sink at 1400fpm best glide. There are many other planes that fly as well as bricks without power.

I once was in a Cessna 206 on a flight plan that took us up to 17,000 ft. You can fly that altitude fine, as long as you have supplemental oxygen (via a cannula in our case).

We took off at about 3AM, and I fell asleep immediately. Woke up somewhere well above 10K, dizzy as hell and realized what I'd done. I put in the cannula and the dizziness left within a few minutes iirc.

[Edit]

Oddly enough, I just talked to my father for the first time in years. It's amazing how faulty memory narrates.

It was a Cessna 421 and the tanks were vented, but the vents had frozen over because of a heater failure. The temp was 42F below zero. They didn't puncture the tanks, just unscrewed the caps.

The craziest part, which I had forgotten, wasn't the problem with smoking. Their nav equipment had failed after the engines quit. They had to dead reckon to Iceland. They were much closer than halfway, but were still navigating blind.

Needless to say they sighted Iceland and found the airport.

> [Edit]

What is interesting is that given that I read HN for both knowledge and entertainment the edit didn't even matter. The story was still interesting even if the facts were off.

I'm glad he made a followup instead of editing the original. The two together make up a fantastic whole.

Talk to your father more. You’ll most likely regret not doing so when he’s gone.

This does not necessarily applies to all. My father died last year. We were never close. I don’t even think we’ve ever talked besides absolutely necessity.

I've often noticed this exchange on HN.

Someone well-meaning recommends someone to cherish their parent(s) and maintain contact with them, and gets checked by people telling them that not all parent-child relationships and interactions are pleasant or desired.

Are many people here estranged from their parents?

I too have seen my biological father barely 10 times in my entire life, but I have had other father figures in my life, uncles and aunts and other adults that raised me and guided me, and regrettably passed away too soon because I could pay them back, or even show them my appreciation enough.

There are still people from my childhood who still help me and whom I wish I could get along with, but there is also a lot of friction between us and I regret that, because they are at the end of their lifespans and I would like to part on a better note if possible.

People only live once and there is never anyone else exactly like someone. Even if you despise your close relations on a personal level, in the interest of "science" I think you could still try to gain their insights and record their experiences, document their history, before they cease to exist. Especially if you are the best or only person in the position to do that.

Strange comment, when you have zero information about their relationship.

>Their nav equipment had failed after the engines quit. They had to dead reckon to Iceland.

I had read about dead reckoning as a kid in some book, but forgot or didn't know what it meant. Looked it up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_reckoning

Both that and the related idea of inertial navigation systems are interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system

Dead reckoning was also infamously the reason why Allied bombs accidentally hit Prague instead of Dresden in World Ward II.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945_Bombing_of_Prague

This was all very interesting, thank you. But the first time in years? That story is begging to be told. As you walk by the bank of pay phones, you will hear them all ring, one after another, until you tell that story.

Dead reckoning needed probably because they lost vacuum and gyro power to instruments, which then spin down and float randomly if there’s no battery backup

Inertial Navigation System... a mechanical system which maintains position by double integrating acceleration, which means infinitesimal errors grow to dominate over time, and so need to be recalibrated often.

    a, v0 maybe vectors; x maybe a point insead of a number
    x(t) = a(t)*t^2 + v0*t + x0

Modern human-portable INSes for adventuring/surveying use laser ring gyros, and GPS when available.

Your formula only works for constant acceleration.

The fact that losing engine power would be a death sentence in the first place disturbs me. Is there not enough room on board for survival equipment like an inflatable raft?

The water in the north Atlantic is usually fairly rough so it would be challenging just to accomplish a controlled ditching, never mind deploying an inflatable raft. The water is so cold that you'll be disabled within a few minutes unless you're already in a survival suit.

Even a survival suit won't help if you aren't found quickly.

The pilot in the article did bring a raft + survival suit, and apparently knows of pilots that survived a ditching:

"If you do end up in the water, the important thing is to get into your life raft but also I have a thick neoprene survival suit, which completely encloses the body and you've probably got a few hours survival in that."

He knows of other ferry pilots who have landed in the sea and survived, but admits it's not something he cares to dwell on.

If you ditch over the ocean in any plane, you’re probably dead no matter what. There’s a reason we overengineer planes.

I took my Cirrus SR22 airplane across the pond and back a few months ago [KFRG CYHU CYZV CYYR CYKL CYFB BGSF BIRK EGPC]. Two things surprised me: the manner people live up North, and how modernized technology is changing the risk profile of the flight.

People up north (well, native people anyway) live a sustenance lifestyle of of necessity. Far from being a "cultural attraction," for them, it's a choice between a $20 stick of butter and a free whale from the ocean. When you're living on government subsidies in a town plagued by joblessness, there's not much of a choice.

The economic condition up in arctic Canada was saddening in other ways. Imagine living in -40F climates, and not having a place to stay. There are often 15-20 people per tiny house, with children's mattresses strewn across the ground of the living room. On top of the living quarters, the communications infrastructure was horrendous - a satellite backbone for internet that was next to useless for getting a weather briefing.

While the situation on the ground was... enlightening, from the air, things are becoming immensely more modern. Historically dangerous aspects to ferry flights are now void: communication, navigation, and rescue are all radically transformed.

Communication used to be a huge challenge (think clunky HF radio with a 25 foot trailing link antenna), but is now a non-event with a satellite phone. My Iridium candy-bar phone, while expensive, now gives me the ability to call ATC worldwide and let them know my exact position. By next year, ATC will automatically get real-time position updates from any ADS-B equipped aircraft: https://aireon.com/.

Navigation used to be a combination of LORAN, NDBs, and looking at the stars (no joke). Now, it's GPS direct. You know exactly where you are at all times, with 0 ambiguity. And you have an iPhone in your pocket as a backup, even if your plane goes totally dark.

Rescue is now a matter of hours instead of days. I carried a PLB with me. If I pressed a button, satellites would be pinged with an SOS signal and my exact GPS location. Rescue aircraft could be dispatched immediately and on-site within hours.

For anyone thinking about this trip, do it! The adventure will give you an appreciation for the frontiers of technology.

While this is true, many of the aircraft that are ferried lack this equipment. Even plenty of airliners are still crossing the pond with just HF and SELCAL.

Why though? ForeFlight + iPad + bluetooth GPS module is all you need, doesn't have to be part of the panel/approved/etc.

Not ferrying per se, but an interesting story of flying a Boeing 314 from Auckland to New York "the long way round" in December 1941, just after the Pearl Harbour attacks, with the challenges of refueling and avoiding the war, and without charts:

https://medium.com/s/story/the-long-way-round-the-plane-that...

Its kind of obscure but the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum has a magazine that regularly has mind boggling stories like that that and others.

https://www.airspacemag.com/

An autobiographical story of ferrying a Cessna C150 from Oshkosh, WI to Gaborone, Botswana: http://www.cessna150-152.com/transatlantic.htm

It has information about swapping out seats for a fuel tanks, a broken antenna, bribes / extra fees.

> Although Leon could talk to air traffic controllers in Gander, New York and Santa Maria, the biggest problem was the disbelief from the airliners when they continually asked for his aircraft type.

great story. I used to train on a C152 and knew a few guys at the local aerodrome who had done ferry flights from the US to the UK. Which is something I (as a shitty weekend VFR pilot) have the uttermost respect for. But that story about getting it from Oskosh to Gaborone, wow.

Textron still deliver some single-engined 172s and 182s eastbound like that. They've recently started staging through Belfast Aldergrove airport, which is what brought it to my attention. I had assumed they'd go as deck cargo.

Daher send TBM turboprops westbound by the same route but at least they're pressurised. Pilatus stage PC-12s through Prestwick in Scotland.

Occasionally at Belfast we see unusual types being ferried by Southern Cross, who specialise in such work:

http://southernx.com

I used to train in C152 that had been fitted with extended fuel tanks; before used as a trainer, it had been used to patrol pipelines in remote parts of Texas. With full tanks, it could fly a long time.

It was a tiny plane. And I was a shitty pilot. Ferrying one across open seas would be amazing and terrifying.

What a fascinating story. Thanks for sharing. I was surprised that the route went from Canada straight to the Azores. I'm imagining this is much risker route than Greenland -> Iceland -> UK -> Europe? Do you know why he selected the direct route with 14 hours over the ocean instead?

Note: I'm not an aviator, so this is to be taken with a "I'm reading things". The great circle route is rather direct - http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=YQM-YYT-SMA-DKR&MS=wls&MR=600&MX=... (from http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=YQM-YYT-SMA-DKR&MS=wls&DU=mi ) with legs of 1581 and 1602 miles.

I'm guessing weather is a key question there. This is based on https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/hangar-talk/34838-help-ne... which is taking a C172 from Maine to India and has the same question: St. Johns to Azores or Greenland and Iceland. The general suggestion there appears to be the Greenland and Iceland route.

There's also http://220kts.com/ferry-flights/atlantic-ferry-routes.html which looks at some of the options too. That seems to be a popular route: https://www.k-aircraft.de/en/news-neuigkeit/north-atlantic-f.... Note that first link mentions "good alternative during wintertime". The ferry was done in October.

Consider things like: GPS was new. The pilot was flying the "same" route as the airlines (this was important when the radio broke - if he was flying a different route he wouldn't be able to transmit until close range with VHF)

All that said, this appears to be his preferred route: http://www.aerocompinc.com/airplanes/CA6/africa.htm .

As a not an aviator, I'll guess fuel costs (Greenland is a ways north if you're trying to go to Africa) and icing concerns?

---

Tangent to this... The 717s that Hawaiian Airlines flies has a range of 2,371 miles. The distance from SFO to Hawaii is 2,339 miles. To get the proper range - the inside of the plane: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Hawaiian-Air/Boeing-717-22A/1...

This link really puts the choice of Azores in perspective in terms of efficiency:

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=YQM-YYT-SMA-DKR&MS=wls&MR=600&MX=...

The northerly route is much less efficient although probably a lot safer.

Buy the way these are some wonderful links. Thanks.

In the 1950s my dad, a USAF pilot and Korean War veteran, did a tour as a ferry pilot, flying (among others) single-engine fighter jets over the North Atlantic ... in winter. He recounted that he and his squadron mates were naturally concerned about losing the engine, going in the water, and quickly freezing to death. They kicked around the idea of doing what legendary fighter pilot "Robbie" Risner had successfully done for his wingman in combat in Korea a few years earlier: Get behind and push [0]. During the Vietnam War, a variation on this idea became known as "Pardo's Push" [1]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Robinson_Risner#Korean_W...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardo%27s_Push

Every year, there are a number of Kenn Borek planes, mostly Twin Otters, that need to be moved from the Arctic to the Antarctic and back. These planes mainly work out of McMurdo Station during the Austral summer, but McMurdo is far enough from the nearest civilisation (New Zealand) that the planes can't fly directly (nevermind that getting to NZ from Canada would be an epic by itself).

So, they fly the length of the Americas, hop over to the Antarctic Peninsula, and cross the continent over South Pole, to get to McMurdo. This all happens at about the earliest and latest in the summer when the planes can fly, so that puts them going through some pretty marginal conditions at South Pole in particular.

It's also very important that the crews bring "freshies" from South America or they may not be allowed in to the station at South Pole, where they're the first outsiders in ~9 months.

Yea those Kenn Borek guys are a different breed.

I think this has been posted here before but: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/kenn-borek-smithsonia...

As for the crossing from NZ-Antarctica, even large planes struggle, there's generally a point in the journey that they have to commit to landing as they don't have enough fuel to get there, abort and come back. This can be an issue as the weather in Antartica changes rapidly so you may find yourself in a storm after getting the green light to commit, as the RNZAF 757 did a few years ago:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/65543703/murray-mccullys...

(I'm not sure if the C-17 planes the USA fly down there have the same issue but every other plane will)

The C17 usually flies from Christchurch to McMurdo and back, without taking on fuel in McMurdo. They are such impressive machines!

Impressive as they are, the last(final?) time the C-5 came to Christchurch the C-17s looked ordinary next to them. When the C-5 was lined up, the taxing A320's looked like dinkys. However, the C-5 was to big to head down to the ice.

I had a low hours Piper Chieftain ferried to Australia from the UK about eight years ago. Availability of Avgas was the major limiting enroute factor. I have some great pictures of the aeroplane being refueled by hand in India - not a hand pump, really by hand. They were emptying 10 litre buckets into a funnel stuck in the wing fuel tank cap.

From what I've understood, in many places around the world, Jet A1 is all there is. Some years ago there seemed to be considerable interest in diesel aero engines for small aircraft, but it seems the hoopla has died down somewhat? Or maybe I'm not following it as much as I used to..?

Diesels are still a thing. Inertia in the GA market is a bitch. '

Diesel does seem to be the way of the future though, since you can run them on jey fuel. Standard avgas is still leaded, which is a big problem.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2007/11/-quot...

The Year there was no AV gas in Australia...

Dassault business jets are ferried over to the US from France in an incomplete state. They are unpainted and empty inside with only a rudimentary set of temporary cockpit instruments. They are consequently too light to land safely and have to be loaded with lead ballast.

Too light to land is something I'd never considered before today. Cool!

The problem is when having not enough load in certain areas of the plane its center of gravity gets out of limits. For example it is quite common for small sailplane pilots to load some kilos of lead in designated parts below their feet to balance the plane.

Weight and balance is a big part of flying I recall dreading that when I took flying lessons (I think 30 years ago! I'm old).

Ya, I have had to ballast my cirrus when I had a very heavy passenger up front with me to keep the plane from being too heavy in the front. The problem when a plane is out of balance if you get into a stall, it could be unrecoverable. I've landed the aircraft with heavy front COG and was really surprised how quickly the nose came down on the runway, compared to the normal flare and float I was used to. : )

While training you need to know how to calculate W&B by hand on paper, but there are various wonderful applications on the iPad or iPhone that do it for me quickly. Here is a simple example of one if you're curious.

https://ipadpilotnews.com/2014/10/calculate-weight-balance-f...

To light? Or so light the center of gravity was off?

There's a YouTube channel by a young flyer called Matt Guthmiller I quite enjoy watching. There's a series of videos he recorded about piloting (and co-piloting) a Cessna 210 from the US to the UK (and beyond). This is the playlist (I think it's in the correct chronological order):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9Uf-ynoDUE&list=PLoruKoPAfK...

I think at some point in the journey they also needed to use oxygen because they needed to fly above 10000 feet. Looked like quite an adventure.

Federal Aviation Regulations require the use of supplemental oxygen by required flight crew at a cabin altitude above 14,000 feet MSL or after 30 minutes above 12,500. (14 CFR 91.211).

He set a world record for being the youngest pilot to circumnavigate the globe solo at 19. The record has been beaten since then, but what an accomplishment!

He’s also an MIT student studying electrical engineering and computer science.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Guthmiller#Solo_flight_...

Yes, of course, I'd completely forgotten about that achievement.

The article states:

>"This delivery will cost the owner about $20,000 (£13,000)."

I am curious why not put the light craft on a cargo ship to cross the Atlantic? How much more could it be? Or is the ferry piloting of light aircraft really steeped in tradition?

I would think that anyone buying a plane is maybe not on such a tight budget.

Depending on construction, disassembling and reconstructing the aircraft might be problematic.

I imagine it’s purely supply and demand when it comes to willing pilots versus the number of planes that need delivery.

And practically speaking as a buyer having the plane flown to me is the equivalent of two day shipping instead of ground freight when it comes to the “I want it now” mentality.

I also figured it would cost far more. $20k is nothing compared to the cost of the plane.

Light aircraft are pretty cheap. A Cessna 150 can be acquired for just ~$15k.

But how much to overhaul?

can you please show me where you could find a deal like that? not doubting you just curious

You’ll find plenty on https://www.trade-a-plane.com/ for example. Although I would be extremely wary of actually flying one that was selling for that price. You’re probably buying a project, not an airplane.

You can get a 'flyable' Learjet for $100K: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Jets&ma...

Planes don't fit in a shipping container, which probably makes that an expensive one-off.

There are ship shipping ships. Used to haul mega yachts from North America to Europe. https://www.yacht-transport.com/schedules.html . I would imagine with proper cribbing an airplane could be safely shipped.

Ships are explicitly designed for a corrosive, harsh, salt-water environment. Aeroplanes, not so much...

Just guessing here, but while you could probably fit something the size of a Cessna 152 into a container, and the shipping would probably be cheap, you'd have to remove the wings and put them lengthwise. My guess is that the cost of doing that, and reattaching them and verifying airworthiness isn't worth it compared to just flying it over.

Sea spray does wonders to aluminium. Add dissimilar metals, air full of electrolyte solution and you’re going to have gremlins. Now you could get around that by disassembling it and packing it in a container. But now you’re paying for the added expense of an aircraft mechanic to reassemble and recertify the aircraft.

Taking apart an aircraft (to make it fit in a container) and being able to put it together is very hard

This is more commonly done with helicopters, but it is a potential reliability issue.

It would seem easier to do with helicopters. Whilst looking it up I discovered that it done via the ‘Jesus nut’. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_nut

Edit: Seems they done necessarily need any disassembly and can sometimes just be wrapped. This shipping firm do it, picture near bottom of link. https://www.cratexgroup.com

Depending on the plane, you might not be able to. Cirruses for example are composite planes whose structure AND wings from from a single piece of composite, therefore you can't remove the wings like you'd do on a Cessna, so you can't ship them on cargo ships (wouldn't fit on containers).

And does that $20k include insurance? Fuel? Or is it just the pilotage fee?

During WW2, the B-17's were not shipped to England. They were flown over the Atlantic by the crews that would fly them in combat. Many were lost that way.

Navigation was done with a sextant.

They did this a number of times in the show "ice pilots" on netflix. Had to get training on ditching, and fly the entire route wearing emergency gear in case the plane crashed. Pretty intense, definitely one of my favorite aviation shows, next to "come fly with me" (which is hilarious).

The Pacific is even more formidable.

There was a guy a few years ago flying a twin engine Cessna from California to Hawaii. He didn't make it. Lucky for him the Coast Guard fished him out of the water.

https://www.cnn.com/2011/10/08/us/hawaii-plane-emergency/ind...

There was another incident like that too, a guy tried to make it to Hawaii and calculated he'd not make it because of headwinds and had to ditch. He deployed his airframe parachute in the plane and was picked up by a life boat from a cruise ship.

Here is the coastguard video of the event:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBCUQlF3MMU

>13 miles off the coast

Oh man so close....

This book is an awesome read of you like ferry-pilot “war@ stories: https://www.amazon.com/Shark-Bait-Misadventures-Oceanic-Ferr...

Another book recommendation is Air Vagabonds, by Anthony Vallone [1].

Lots of hilarious anecdotes about the world of small plane ferrying and its colorful cast of characters. One of my favorite parts is the story of a ferry pilot who hits a giraffe while flying low over Botswana to stay awake.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Air-Vagabonds-Oceans-Airmen-Adventure...

This is one of the dream jobs of aviation in my opinion. Many young pilots dream of becoming military pilots or airline captains, but for me the dream would be either ferry flights or bush flying to remote areas.

Some people invest large sums of money for an adventure flying around the world (see link below that has many examples) but if you are a ferry pilot or a bush pilot you are basically being paid to live the adventure.

While not being about ferry flights, the website http://www.soloflights.org/index.html has a list of common Atlantic and Pacific routes, it's very interesting.

These guys flew a Cessna 210 across the atlantic via Nunavut and Greenland:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9Uf-ynoDUE

I think a discussion would be incomplete without remembering The Little Prince, Wind Sand and Stars. Time for me to read Saint-Exupery again.

If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. -- Antoine Saint-Exupery

One biographer wrote of his most famous work: "Rarely have an author and a character been so intimately bound together as Antoine de Saint-Exupéry and his Little Prince," and remarking of their dual fates, "...the two remain tangled together, twin innocents who fell from the sky." -- From Wikipedia

Pet peeve but it matters. That quote “from Wikipedia” [1] is by Stacy Schiff and published in the New York Times [2]. Wikipedia Should never be referenced as a primary source. It does include citations to the proper sources.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Prince [2]: https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/00/06/25/b...

Fair enough.

It was a deliberate choice though. I did not want (a) to give an impression that I was familiar with the original source and (b) felt a few readers would be piqued enough to read the Wikipedia page for more.

If you want people to read something providing a link and proper context is a good start. It’s obvious that you have familiarity because you’re posting about it.

I wish there was a longer docuementary about this

https://youtu.be/ENVvwAT25Jk

Dad had a Saratoga (Malibu with a piston engine instead of a turboprop)...this takes me back.

This reminds me of personal flying machines like the BlackFly. Obviously for most of them things like this are unrealistic, but this is part of why the Schengen Area is so important for example.

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