The French Language and Why We Learn It | Hacker News Reader

The French Language and Why We Learn It

lareviewofbooks.org

70 pointsohaikbai46 comments

As an English speaker since age 3 I found it both valuable and pleasurably to learn French and German, as the three languages are like the vertices of a common triangle, with so much shared history that speaking one provides insights into the other two.

The article points out another factor though: I am lucky (?) enough to use all three daily; in the US there is no reason for that to be the case. If you learn a language as a "foreign" language it will forever be foreign to you; if you learn another language as a living, thing that you must use you will internalize it. That's not a moral judgement; simply the way of the world. And in many countries one language suffices.

shared history sure but if it were about relations then it's English, German, and one of the other germanic languages.

I learnt Latin in school third of the class did, Bavaria, you know...) and funny enough it was a good help to improve my English.

On usage, unlike 25 years ago when I would have needed more English, we can have access to radio and tv streams from around the world. Sitting in Helsinki and wanting to learn Portogese via Brazialian telenovelas? No problemo!

The history angle is indeed interesting. Neither English nor French is my mother tongue. I started learning English at the age of 3 and learnt French for almost a year at the of 18. It was quite interesting to see the influence French had on English. I later found that almost a third of English words have French origin. Further searching took me all the way back to Norman invasion of England and how the Norman royals were sort of disolved in the English culture. European history never disappoints you. :)

It's even more interesting with exposure to neighboring languages. You observe more and more how they flow one into the other. Modern nationalities have introduced something of a step function feature to this, but not at all thoroughly.

Americans, for one, often wonder at how many languages a European may speak. And there's significant instruction and emphasis on this, I understand. (My own experience is with the U.S. education system.) But, too, there's simply the fact that over relatively small distances -- in our modern world -- language changes. And you grow up accommodating that.

> It's even more interesting with exposure to neighboring languages. You observe more and more how they flow one into the other. Modern nationalities have introduced something of a step function feature to this, but not at all thoroughly.

This is called a dialect continuum [1] for those curious.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect_continuum

>As an English speaker since age 3 I found it both valuable and pleasurably to learn French and German, as the three languages are like the vertices of a common triangle

I don't know French, but had noticed and said somewhat the same (although regarding English and German only) in an HN thread about Berlin startups a while ago. (Someone said something about the difficulty or otherwise of learning German, and I replied to that.) I noticed while learning German that I could guess the meaning of many German words, because they were similar to English words I knew. Even very light knowledge of Latin (just casually picked up during a lot of reading of English) and some Sanskrit knowledge (studied it in school for a few years) helped, since all are from Indo-European language family tree.

UKer here: the French my daughter learns at school is very different from the language I studied 40-odd years ago - much more emphasis on how young people communicate and vastly more English loan words (and no French writers in sight as far as I can see). At the same time, the French themselves, who were infamous for their uncompromising linguistic pedantry in my youth are now far more relaxed and accommodating: whereas before speaking English to a Parisian seemed something akin to a crime, now it is considered quite normal.

I can confirm, French people had always been so proud of their language, but now not only tourists life is much easier in Paris, english words are also being used daily incorporated in their language.

A very common example that younger generations use is the expression "c'est cool ca" to simply say that something is cool.

source: I live in Paris

When I went to France on a student exchange 25 years ago, all my classmates were using that exact phrase.

I heard "On y go" in Paris, made me laugh.

I saw a shop in Köln with this name. Multiple layers of amusement.

(French here) The environment also changed a lot. We are now much more exposed to english based culture through Internet, movies and tv shows, making it much easier to maintain a level good enough to communicate after school. My parents did learn english but never had chances to make any use of it. They might have had a good enough level to communicate at some point but they definitely forgot everything

I think you're better off staying away from Capital cities as a rule. People are more patient outside them. The only truly friendly capital city I've been to is Rome. I wouldn't be the most widely travelled though.

Interesting take.

There is something to be said about how proud the French are about their culture and language. What would be seen as exaggerated nationalism in other country, seems perfectly acceptable for the French.

I'm wondering if that glowering pride pushes more people to learn French.

I think for many Americans it's an inherited artifact from Britishers for whom for a long time French was the lingua franca of aristocracy and the renaissance. It’s been a sort of “aspirational” language in that by proxy it signaled upper class.

Do you have any specific examples? I'm French, lived and travelled in a few countries and I don't see France being much different than any other country with long cultural history in that regard.

The Alliance Française all around the world. I can't think of many other countries that have glorify their own culture internationally, especially in past colonies (like in Vietnam and Cambodia).

The French are hardly the only ones running language and cultural centers abroad. See Portugal's Instituto Camões, Brazil's Centro Cultural Brasileiro, Britain's British Council, France's Alliance Française, Italy's Società Dante Alighieri, Spain's Instituto Cervantes, Germany's Goethe-Institut,and China's Confucius Institute.

They have a considerable presence in India(former British colony) as well. They have 14 centres, all of which are in major cities.

> They have a considerable presence in India(former British colony) as well. They have 14 centres, all of which are in major cities.

India was also colonized by the French. In fact, the French still held onto their colonies in India for several decades after the British left.

Mainly anecdotal but it seems to me that it is a common representation worldwide of the French to be arrogant and very proud of their own culture. I'm trying to not make a judgment here, not that I'm saying it is good or bad.

Anecdotal also, but I work internationally and with a lot of french people. The French groups would be the most vocal to complain about pretty much everything in their host country, claiming they cannot wait to go back to France to taste "Real bread", or "Real wine", etc etc.

I'm French and born in Paris, and I find most of French people very impolite (I live more like a Japanese, with the "fear" to disturb order and people), so I don't complain when I am in another country.

But the only country where I could live is Italy, because they have "real food".

I really suffer with the local food when I'm abroad, and as far as I know, all my friends suffer as well. My wife is Russian but lives in France for many years and she has the same reaction with food in other countries (except Italy!). It's not arrogance, it's pain and a feeling of eating dirty things !

Two words: Académie Française, the governmental body which determines what is official "standard" French, and zealously guards the language against loanwords from other languages in an attempt to preserve a purely French French language.

> zealously guards the language

and which everyone in the country blissfully ignores.

Yeah, the campaign for "courriel" was such a success!

I think you're right on the first part, we're proud about some particular aspects of our culture and society (bread, wine, holidays, hospitals). But that doesn't make the french nationalists.

You will never see a flag of France in a garden. Except for the 2 weeks of the world cup or during the terrorist attacks. Politically, we're lost trying to copy the silicon valley and Germany. Most people are convinced today it's better to in a sense dilute the country in the European union.

> bread, wine, holidays, hospitals

Those are indeed part of our culture yet what I care the most in our heritage are the values underpinning our culture: humanism, Enlightenment, scientists, authors, and artists who made massive discoveries and progress, the declaration of human rights, abolition of death penalty, the hard stance publicly taken at th UN against the Iraq war and not bending over in front of the US when basically every other country was submissive and mute about it, everyday people becoming members of the Resistance who kept on actively and passively fighting in the shadows against an unfathomable body of hate, laying ground for the foundation of the EU and collaborating towards a more balanced, non-bipolar world...

Those are the values that underpin my pride of France. Unfortunately I witness everything about that being slowly eroded away by a growing feeling of fear and self-interest, and an increasing number of people indulging in the very hate we fought against. Of that I am not proud of being French.

If being proud of your culture and history doesn’t make you a nationalist what does? The fact that French and American nationalism are expressed differently doesn't mean the French aren’t nationalist. Irish nationalism is expressed to an amazing and annoying extent in hatred of the English. Flag waving is not the be all and end all of nationalism.

Being proud does not make you nationalist. The issue with flag waving is the association with expansive military actions, repression of minorities etc. As in, outside sport match situation (where anybody waves flag), flag waving people were and are usually pro expansion, quite hateful and fearful of other ethnic groups, authoritarian etc.

Likely the association in USA is different. But here, when I see flag in backyard, I would expect open or at least above average animosity toward tourist of wrong color. And also expect support for authoritarian anti democratic group.

> The issue with flag waving is the association with expansive military actions, repression of minorities etc. As in, outside sport match situation (where anybody waves flag), flag waving people were and are usually pro expansion, quite hateful and fearful of other ethnic groups, authoritarian etc.

France has proven itself to be more than capable of that ugly side of nationalism, whether or not they are waving flags.

The point here is that when/if it turns ugly, perpetrators will wave flag. Hence association of open flag waving with "the ugly stuff is about to happen in the open and for real".

> The point here is that when/if it turns ugly, perpetrators will wave flag.

It already is ugly, and in plain sight. That's my point: people who aren't themselves directly affected by it don't notice it or dismiss it because it doesn't look like the jingoistic, flag-waving nationalism that they think of, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

To me (American by birth, Francophone by grace of dieu), it's more than just baguettes and Eiffel towers. This is the country that frightened Europe to the core by taking the still-bleeding head off of a monarch and setting an example for civil law. The world's leading military power until an unfortunate defeat in 1763 by lucky Brits, without which we'd likely speak French as a first language instead of second.

Or more simply, the most beautiful country I've ever visited, where I can visit a doctor for just 27 euros without insurance, and they'll actually have a personal conversation with me to understand my ailment, instead of the horrific, expensive, and impersonal factory farm that American medicine usually is. A place where "zero tolerance" does not (yet) reign supreme and even the infamously numerous and curmudgeonly bureaucrats can make exceptions for a heartfelt story. Where best friends can get into debates daily that turn into shouting matches, before continuing with the business of being best friends.

La lumière du monde. Never ever change, France. Not like you were going to anyway.

And diluting the country in the EU is not incompatible with the French culture. The local food specialities or way of life is not really going to be affected by who administers the country. But French as a language, in the long term, has to die if the EU is meant to happen. You can’t run a country with 15 different languages. French will become another Patois!

Being proud of aspects that tie your country's heritage and wanting them to be preserved actually is nationalism. But this isn't bad. Far from it. Except if you fancy absolute uniformity, cultural nationalism which preserves heritage is a good thing. Right-wing nationalists and supremacy ideologies though which discriminate against anything deviating are inherently flawed.

I’ve been learning for a couple years, and recently thought I’d practice on a French speaker I met at a conference. He listened politely for a couple sentences, remarked that I was “killing the French language”, and continued in English. So I do see the authors point on that.

It helps if you're trying to flirt - everyone in France is generally cool with flirting even with those that botch the language. Just use a bit of flattery and don't be afraid to use a bit of body language (I jokingly call it "speaking Italian ").

Even more fun when you're talking to someone way out of your league.

Chances are, he was just remarking on your pronunciation, which is all anyone cares about with French. I studied it for 5 years (IB/college many years ago) and still managed to get the brusque English-menu treatment in Quebec. For the past year I've listened to almost exclusively French music and my pronunciation has improved dramatically. Now even when I whip out a couple lines of simple A1-level stuff, natives compliment my French. The only thing that has changed is that I talk more like the songs I've learned.

As another data point, I am French and I hate speaking French when I'm abroad, especially in the US or any English speaking country. I find it much easier cognitively to stick with one language, the context switching is too costly.

When I force myself to switch back to French I will initially trip on sentences and find my own accent weird.

If it is your accent, check out the Mimic Method. https://mimicmethod.com

You wouldn't say "Je suis la jeune fille", you'd say "Je suis une jeune fille". (I am the young girl vs. I am a young girl)

What was actually said in the ad: "Je suis le grand Muzzy"

Thanks anoncoward111

Je suis le grand Muzzi-- I am the great Muzzy!!

everybody knew Muzzy growing up :) also you're correct, but conceivably there's a situation where one might say, "je suis la jeune fille avec qui tu parlais hier soir"

This article just gave me a decently compelling reason to finish learning Spanish - for business. I grew up right on the border of Mexico, so it's weird that I don't know it. But I do know French fairly well and have never found it very useful.

I learned French for a couple of years and would be happy to compare my own experiences with the author's. However, having read the whole article, I failed to understand the author's main ideas.

I would be very grateful if someone could give a tldr summary of it.

It was surprisingly badly written for the LARB.

Garbage review of a garbage book. Not sure why I spent all that time reading something uselessly long.

Calling a language "useless" is shallow and trite. Learning a language, wherever it ranks on the world's popularity list, is about learning a culture, opening new doors, conversing with a people and broadening your mind.

The only way to learn a language properly is to immerse yourself in it. The US-centric model of endless classes and then going off to Europe to party with a bunch of your friends with whom you only converse in English will only set you up for failure. The initial impetus to learn was potentially a romantic one, to learn a foreign language. But your dream was dashed by the actual difficulty and perseverance required to learn.

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