AMD Creates Quad Core Zen SoC with 24 Vega CUs for Chinese Consoles | Hacker News Reader

AMD Creates Quad Core Zen SoC with 24 Vega CUs for Chinese Consoles

anandtech.com

236 pointsdeafcalculus70 comments

Should be interesting to see how well this works - the primary issue with these APU designs is matching the amount of available memory bandwidth to the CPU and GPU cores.

Assuming they adapt the conventional Ryzen DDR4 controller to be a 128 bit wide GDDR5 controller with a reasonable 7Gbit/s speed, this would have ~120GB/s of memory bandwidth, which is 3x that of the 2400G (which is regarded as bandwidth starved), but slightly more than half what the Intel + Radeon RX Vega i7-8809G has (which is regarded as not having enough GPU cores to use the provided bandwidth).

Probably a reasonably balanced system. Would be interesting to see if this makes it over to their other embedded lines as a high end option: https://www.amd.com/en/products/embedded-ryzen-v1000-series

They mention in the article that GDDR5 is embedded "on chip", which presumably means on package.

It does not preclude that the CPU part of an APU can have own regular memory.

>Update 2:

>AMD has updated its press release to state that it is the GDDR5 controller that is on the chip, and not the 8 GB of GDDR5. The memory is installed on the board elsewhere, as with a normal GPU for example.

Also they now have a newer article with photos: https://www.anandtech.com/show/13163/more-details-about-the-...

8809G doesn't have to share with the CPU. 256 bit controller adapted from Polaris would not go to waste, but you may be right from a cost perspective.

128 bit wide GDDR5 controller with a reasonable 7Gbit/s speed, this would have ~120GB/s of memory bandwidth, which is 3x that of the 2400G (which is regarded as bandwidth starved), but slightly more than half what the Intel + Radeon RX Vega i7-8809G has (which is regarded as not having enough GPU cores to use the provided bandwidth)

Probably a reasonably balanced system

Yes, please! How long before the power and form factor of the Hades Canyon occupies the price point of the PS2? (When the PS2 was current.)

I'd guess they use both GDDR5 and DDR4 controllers in the design. AMD is really big on reusing designs (at 80-130 million per mask set for modern manufacture nodes, it's little wonder). Making a profit requires selling at least 10M chips (assuming around $200M masks/R&D and a $20 charge over base cost).

The 2400G is 209mm^2. Doubling the GPU will move that to somewhere around 275-300mm^2 which should place raw chip cost between $35-40 and final chip cost over $60 (probably closer to $80 minimum) with R&D, masks, and profit. But then there's binning. They will get 3 binnings with the target middle being the desired chip.

The extra 15mm^2 for a DDR4 controller would mean they can laser out the GDDR controller and sell it as a 2500/2600G chip or maybe (less likely) make a package that allows both DDR4 and GDDR5. That's a great use for those over/under performing chips.

A huge question here is L3 cache. Will they be adding extra L3 to try to offset the much larger GDDR5 latencies?

Subor was a brand famous in Russia for their Famicom clones (marketed as Dendy clones), especially keyboard-integrated like this:

http://www.phantom.sannata.ru/articles/subor.shtml

(Article in Russian but photos and screenshots are mostly self-explaining).

Retro Man Cave giving a tour of such a clone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzaRyirU_EI

I think this was the inspiration behind the esp based basicengine console on FP yesterday. A nice synchronicity.

AMD’s press release seems to have more detail. Subor is creating both a gaming PC running Win10 and a console with their own OS, presumably Linux-based.

The CPU and GPU are on the same die, while the GDDR5 is on the motherboard through a 256-bit interface.

https://community.amd.com/community/gaming/blog/2018/08/03/n...

Darn, I was hoping Valve had actually done something to make a SteamOS system in China.

I should think that the Chinese Communist Party would love to maintain a stranglehold over gaming media in China. Making a version of SteamOS and making a success within China would align with how Chinese tech companies have formulated business plans.

If it has any flavor of social media, the party has a mandate to control and monitor it unfortunately.

GDDR5 as CPU RAM sounds crazy in the best possible way.

PS4 has this since 2013.

Isn't it much higher latency than DDR4?

No it doesn't.

GDDR5 is bad for CPU as it sacrifices latency for throughput. Cache misses and branch mispredictions become so expensive and in the end it's inefficient.

8 gigs is not much for a PC. It'd be cool to have more memory, even if DDR4. I wonder what the Linux kernel would make of multiple kinds of RAM with different performance characteristics.

Intel did some work on this for the Xeon Phi that had fast on-package memory and slower main memory. IIRC they use fake NUMA nodes to separate the RAM.

> fake NUMA nodes

Is it really fake if the memory access is non-uniform? Maybe it's unconventional?

You got me there. I think conventionally each cpu is a child of one NUMA node so in this case they had to make a NUMA node with no cpus, which isn't quite correct. https://colfaxresearch.com/knl-mcdram/#fig-3

I wonder how long it would take to get mainline linux support and when these boxes could be bought off of Aliexpress. There are basically no small form factor 2400G systems and this have better graphics.

The systems themselves likely aren't very different from a "standard" x86 system

The hardest part will probably be the sheer amount of DRM installed around them, as consoles tend to have

Where's geohotz when you need him??

He has moved on to hacking things that kill more people than phone and videogames, cars.

> The hardest part will probably be the sheer amount of DRM installed around them, as consoles tend to have

Technically it's not really DRM which is the issue, it's the software engineering and security mitigation letting you jailbreak the system (unless it's just not jailed in the first place).

Then again, while the XB1 is still locked down tight, it took 2 years to get a working PS4 jailbreak and 15 months for the Switch. If the usual chinese SE is any evidence, Subor's probably be at or below the low end.

The pictures in the article appear to show the console just straight up running Windows 10.

I doubt it'll be a problem. The only people who care about the DRM are on the software side, and they also control the hardware side (there is no non-microsoft device that can run xbox one software for example).

I'll bet we'll see a huge export of "consoles" that are just the hardware, expecting companies to create the software and rebrand them.

SteamOS anyone?

>> There are basically no small form factor 2400G systems and this have better graphics.

I've got a 2400G and have designed a very small form factor case specifically to house a Gigabyte AB350N Gaming WiFi ITX motherboard. It's so small the CPU fan and shroud will protrude through the top and will double as a case fan. I am just getting my new 3D printer setup and hope to print this thing this weekend. It's 195mm by 190mm by 60mm high, plus rubber feet to provide clearance for the vents which are on the bottom. It will be reasonably easy to relocate the CPU fan hole for different boards - it's position is 2 parameters in CAD. I'll try to post pics and CAD files someplace when the design is fully printed and finalized. Or perhaps make it available on Shapeways? There is opportunity to shrink it more in the future, but I went for 30mm radius curves on the front and haven't shaved every mm off the height.

Running Fedora Rawhide, there are some issues still but it's amazing when it boots properly. Plays Video on my 4K TV while barely making a sound or heating up.

I'd be interested in the CAD or STL files if you decide to post them.

I used a more off the shelf approach, but the result is likely similar in performance and goal: https://imgur.com/a/Nm607lo

Case is an M350 itx case, and using a pico psu.

There should be more, smaller Ryzen APU systems, they really are amazing. Looking forward to physical releases of their v1000 series SoC's.

I meant like the ZOTAC ZBOX MA551 which has been basically vaporware for the last 9 months showing up at consumer show every 3 or 4 months. NUC like package.

Yeah, I wanted the ZBOX too. Gave up and decided to roll my own. If the big names won't support AMD with SFF I will.

I was debating a similar setup with a Skyreach 4 mini sff case, but building your own case sounds interesting. Would love to see yours when finished.

[edit: typo]

You could build something like this with a 2400G today: https://imgur.com/IWMqyRR

It is very small as far as custom PCs go, pixel 2 provided as a size reference.

Check out the DAN Cases SFX, the smallest gaming case in the world. You can buy it at caseking.de. Not affiliated.

Is there a reason why Chinese smartphone seems to be successfully exported (Xiaomi, Huawei,...) and I have never heard until then of a Chinese console ? Is it an issue with the games available ? A matter of taste ?

Consoles were banned in China from 2000 to 2015.

Resulting in some interesting dodges around the law over the years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzaRyirU_EI

Thanks. Seems like a good enough reason to not have a domestic market then.

Chinese smartphone export seems to be a quite new phenomena as well.

Depends on what part of the world you live, and what brand.

Huawei and ZTE has had a presence in Europe for years, with Huawei even getting into the infrastructure market.

Xiaomi is a different story, as they were not even interested in getting their devices Google certified for the longest time.

And much like how Samsung eroded the foundation of Nokia's market by undercutting them on cheap featurephones, Huawei seems to have done the same to Samsung by flooding the market with "cheap" models and working their way up.

Not to say that Huawei's offerings are bad from a customer standpoint, i had a P6 for a number of years and frankly it surprised me with its software bundle. I really felt they were angling more towards being a pocket computer than being a media player with streaming.

Gaming BANNED in China for 15 years! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDdvY35Av3M

serpentza also made a video about buying officially allowed console games, there were like 5 western titles on the list.

So A Chinese Consoles company could get a AMD Semi Custom Chip.

What is there stopping Apple getting one for Mac Mini?

Or Razor getting one for their Gaming Laptop?

Volume

Apple already have a good enough rapport with Intel that they can get "custom" variants for their laptops (the Air got a variant with a shrunk package back in the day, iirc).

With Razer, dunno. But when it comes to gaming AMD has long held the "hobbyist" stigma compared to Intel+Nvidia (though one may wonder if that is as a result of shenanigans from the latter two).

You should know that Apple is quite possibly dumping Intel for their next generation computers. See https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-02/apple-is-... or other similar articles.

Mac Minis are basically reshaped laptop motherboards in a special case, apple doesn't need to buy a totally custom CPU for it. Whatever AMD or Intel makes that has appropriate TDP for use in an ASUS notebook will also work for a new mac mini.

I wonder if these might wind up in other sorts of markets besides just for Chinese consoles or if there is some sort licensing restrictions that will prevent that.

What games will the chinese console version play? Will it end up being able to play both xbox and playstation games?

No way. There are enough of chinese gamedevs which can fuel the ecosystem easily.

How is it any different than a PC with a controller then?

In the same way the PS4 and XBox One are - different firmware, different OS, closed system.

how are Xbox or PS different than a PC with a controller ? Even most of the games are available on either platform. It's just an ecosystem and a few exclusives, even the hardware in modern consoles is basically a x86 PC.

Closed system, DRM, million dollar marketing budget.

I hope AMD and Chinese consoles can disrupt the market being with the big three players gets kind of boring after a while.... Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo need some Sony more so than the others...

How do the Chinese games look like ? Are they typically Chinese like the Japanese games are typically japonese ?

I might have done some electronics in high school, but what is chip made for?

Is it a hybrid CPU/GPU chip?

It looks like a standard x86 chip (or system-on-a-chip), with a beefy GPU and current-generation AMD processors, with enough on-package RAM to be a serious PC (8GB).

It seems like a natural evolution from the XBox One / PS4 processors, which AMD also makes, but which use previous-generation CPU and GPU. Should be much faster than them.

It could be the new cheapest foundation of a "good enough" gaming PC.

Can 8 GB cover 4K gaming?

PS4 Pro has 8GB of GDDR5 and has native & checkerboard 4K games.

I would love to have a laptop with that SoC or similar.

AMD can deliver great GPUs for every company except themselves. Sad.

This GPU is likely "trash" in comparison to say... a GTX 1060 or something. AMD is really good at low to middle ground GPUs, and is good at integrating them to the CPU.

Obviously no "PC Gamer" wants a GPU that can run [Big name game here] at "only 34 fps on low to medium settings". That's not AMDs strong suite (although they do try).

Hmm, I don't have the latest figures on 4k TV market penetration, but I think we can all agree 1080p is still the standard.

Taking this into consideration, and the current generation of consoles, maybe the question should be : does the GPU need to be at the level of a GTX 1060, with all the costs it has?

The bulk of PC Gamers are playing Fortnite, League of Legends, so I don't see the part of "Big name game" at 4k maximum settings being the major share - now one thing I will agree, they are the share with the highest profit margin, and that is where AMD takes blows from NVIDIA - NVIDIA marginal upper hand performance in mid-to-high-end GPUs takes high margin consumers from AMD.

To stay it's not AMD strong suit its kind of ... meh... it's either NVIDIA or AMD. Those are the players. Intel, PowerVR, whatever, are not even in the same game.

If you said "That's not AMD competitive advantage" I would agree - it's a major selling point, but to say they're not strong in high-end GPUs is undermining their technology.

Making a rough generalization, and not undermining NVIDIA work and tech, but in the gaming market, NVIDIA greatest win is the marketing arguments.

Seconding this. When I game, I game at 1080p because I employ an analog antialiasing technique known as sitting several feet from the TV.

That said, I did recently upgrade to a 1060 so that I could run basically everything at ultra quality and buttery smooth framerates at 1080p resolutions.

But... if I weren’t quite as fussed about maxing out the quality on every title, an AMD APU would very much be in the sweet spot.

The raw horsepower of Amd's gaming gpus are actually in the same ballpark.

It comes down to relationships with game producers, and how much they want to optimize for a particular chip.

That's why Amd's gpus in preexisting premium consoles do not want for performance.

Can we install Linux on it bside-by-side with whatever it is in that machine?

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