France Bans Street Harassment, Approving Hefty Fines for Catcallers | Hacker News Reader

France Bans Street Harassment, Approving Hefty Fines for Catcallers

npr.org

72 pointshw109 comments

A lot of commenters here obviously have not witnessed this or been a target.

In pedestrian areas, sometimes the offender will walk with their target for a block or more, saying rude things, directly asking for a f++k, etc.

And believe it or not, sometimes a driver of a car will slow to the speed of the pedestrian and one or more people in the car will harass the pedestrian in verbal sexual ways.

Even if a law is not easily enforcible, at least if a cop happens to witness this they can step in and fine the offender. That just might start to have an impact on the problem.

It's a real nasty situation, particularly for women, especially when they are walking alone (even in the middle of the day). Some of the offenders have no sense of civility.

We already had law against harassment. They are just very hard to enforce.

This law is mainly a PR move. It is a very common thing in France to pass law that will almost never be used because they are impossible to enforce. They only purpose is for the gov to say "look, we did something !".

There is also the normative effect of laws where they do influence the behavior of the majority.

*sometimes

You mean in a country where police officers have gotten convicted for using violence against women for not going out with them ? Also officers have gotten convicted for intercepting phone calls of ex-lovers ? And, given the convictions, how many such officers got away with doing that ? Hundreds ? Thousands ?

That's the government that's supposed to change that normative behavior. Or at least, that's the part of the government that actually interacts with the majority and enforces the laws.

Pig apologist.

Text-only GDPR link:

https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=634866222&rid=1001

Many comments here have concern about this being enforced inappropriately because it's hard to distinguish between an ok situation and a real harassment.

I'd say for me it's real clear where the line goes: consent. If a person says you are not welcome or just doesn't react to you at all after a couple of sentences, just go on your way. If you fail to do so and continue to get in the person's way or head, then it's harassment plain and simple.

The issue with that "rule" is that you can harass someone even if you stop as soon as you realize its unwanted.

A cat call is the most obvious example of this, but there are many less obvious others.

A very good point! I was mostly addressing the crowds that didn't understand what this is all about at all.

Frankly, once I understood what terror being a woman in a public space can sometimes be, I was baffled that it is allowed to happen by the modern society. To offset this crap, I always behave in the most politest way possible and don't even hold my gaze for too long just to avoid contributing to this.

The issue really is that some men think that it's okay to lightly harass women on the street, so like many other laws, it would have tremendously benefitted from some kind of educational material aimed at the offenders which shows how and why this is not okay.

Well, now that this comment is long anyway, I think that much of liberal legislation would be much better received if it was deployed along with some kind of education stuff which explains what the problem really is, refutes common misconceptions etc

> like many other laws, it would have tremendously benefitted from some kind of educational material aimed at the offenders which shows how and why this is not okay.

Does this actually work? Like, will car thievs just stop stealling cars, as soon as you explain to them that it’s actually not OK?

Wow I'd love to see this done and enforced in India!!

Seems reasonable when the evidence is clear. This is too common. People should be able to walk around their own neighborhood and feel comfortable and safe. Awaiting replies from the free speech brigade to explain again why taking a reasonable small step to protect people is the end of the world.

Now let's get this down to earth. You're walking outside, it's dark, you get catcalled by a passerby. What's next? Do you pull out your phone and call the police? Try and take a picture of the person catcalling you? Where's your evidence? By the time you're done reaching for your pocket, that other person is long gone. That is to say, we now have a new law which is incredibly difficult to enforce, so what's the point exactly?

Why don't we tackle problematic social phenomena through education instead?

Did you watch the video in the article?

If there's no evidence there won't be a fine.

I don't think the video depicts any need for a new law.

Harassment already has laws. But I think what happened in the video was clearly a step up from that, and would fall under criminal assault.

Not sure what the woman in the video expects to get done by pushing for more change. Everybody at that restaurant stopped eating. A man in a white shirt grabs a chair to defend the woman. I counted at least 3-4 ready to jump in after him. All pedestrians stopped. There was more than enough evidence to perform a citizen's arrest (assuming that's legal in France?)

To me this is an indication that the current laws are working fine. They may not be heaven, but they are effective at curbing any immediate danger as best can be afforded without treading on other public freedoms (i.e. the freedom to express oneself!)

The video depicts an example where no one needed to pull out their phone to catch the incident. That was the point.

I head stories of women being harassed daily on the same route to and from work. It's probably being done by the same guys. If the police really wanted to, of course they could stop this..just like sexual harassment in the workplace barely ever happens anymore.

I know women that have to endure that almost every day, but the police can't do anything about that. The police can't be everywhere and even if they would there is not much they can do if people approach women by saying something like "hey beautiful woman".

Please don't wade into flamewar right off the bat, especially when a topic is inflammatory. We're trying for a bit better here than the usual internet sludge.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Fair point. Thanks. Enforcement of basic rules helps keep things civil everywhere.

Thanks for the kind reply.

This law is just another racist way to fine and punish POC. Anyone who has been to paris knows the primary cat-callers are not white. I thought Le Pen lost the election?

What does having the law have to do with race? Regardless of race, cat-calling is sexual harassment and should be treated as such.

So it’s okay to catcall if you are not white?

(Not commenting on my opinion of the law itself...)

Maybe they should stop cat calling then...then everyone will be happy

Nice try, but this is HN. Go back to Facebook where they're more susceptible to this sort of thing.

These kind of laws makes approaching people with a sexual interest to perhaps be considered as sexual harassment. That's why I have stopped approaching women, it's not worth the risk. When it's popular to write peoples names publicly on twitter without any evidence for example (metoo), then you know it has gone way to far.

The truth is if people find you attractive, the chance is much lower that they will consider it harassment (even if it may be) and just let it slide. I am sure that these laws will just backfire on the very people it were designed to protect.

There are certain settings where this is more appropriate: bars, clubs, social events. The streets - less so. No one will sue you if you politely start a conversation with a woman in a bar, that's not what this is about.

I understand that, but what I am saying is that it is what is going to be about as well. Why is it even common to think that is automatically harassment because you are starting a conversation with a woman in a street or grocery store?

Generally, yelling things to women from a few meters is not starting a conversation. I wouldn't say it's automatically harassment to approach women in public areas but you should be very careful about how you are doing that and be ever more polite. Most women want to get from point A to point B and not be picked up.

I didn't say anything about any yelling. I don't know about you, but I don't expect to pick up the women I talk to even if I start the conversation out of a sexual interest.

> These kind of laws makes approaching people with a sexual interest to perhaps be considered as sexual harassment. That's why I have stopped approaching women, it's not worth the risk.

If you've been approaching complete strangers in the street with sexual interest, there's no "perhaps" about it. That's sexual harassment and always has been.

No it hasn't always been, it is a very, very recent reasoning. Talking to complete strangers is fun and I am always friendly. I don't necessarily do it in the street but it has happened.

Your kind of thinking is dangerous.

Talking to strangers is fine under the right circumstances. (Maybe a bit weird if it's literally in the street, which is what the French law covers.) You're the one who specifically said "approaching people with a sexual interest." That's a far cry from simply "talking."

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