Developments in tech in Toronto over the past seven years
blog.brainstation.io
blog.brainstation.io
There may be some areas where the Valley tops the comp list, the kind of software engineering that goes on in cities varies. But for many types of software engineering where Seattle excels, such as core infrastructure code, expected hiring costs are astronomically by any general metric.
For American software engineers, this is a brilliant change of condition. A decade ago, if you lived and wanted to work in the flyover metros, you were lucky to get six-figures at all no matter who you were or what you'd done. These days, big non-tech companies are willing to push toward a seven-figure comp package in flyover country for top tech people, in cities where almost no one makes six-figures. It has been really interesting to see.
Yeah, I agree, I've seen similar high offers in other US regions as well.
And as the US visa policies are becoming more strict, european companies won't have to compete against people leaving for the US, so the Salary/CoL ratio will stay bad over here.
how does one find companies with this sort of pay scale? (edit: maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "upper end")
Really? Like 900,000 USD? Really?
If you have elixir or scala experience, like FP, like realtime problems...
As an example situation, I'd like in this pseudononymous situation to ask what are the factors and principles that makes $120k/y a reasonable offer for a functional programmer in Toronto?
A consultant earns about $1k+/day, or double the proposed salary, and companies typically pay $1600-2400/day for contractors through an agency, so I'm trying to figure out what makes that $120k/year viable.
Presumably you pay based on what the work is worth to the company (revenue per employee) and what you can find in the market.
If you are getting price takers at that level, that's the market clearing price, then the market is the market.
But if you aren't getting takers, what is the value can you afford to pay for at $120k, but can also afford to not-have that value if it saves you $30k? Is there a revenue-per-employee threshold, or are you reaching a diminishing marginal return on additional developers - which suggests you are toward the end of your growth curve?
The idea that a company can afford to wait two quarters or longer to hold out for a %20 salary savings by waiting for someone to take it suggests that the marginal value of the work isn't very high.
The definition of a shitty job is pretty much one where your work isn't valued, and when you compare Toronto offers to the rest of the market, they are literally advertising, "we will pay you for work we don't value!" Is there a principle at play here, or is it just a straight "take it or leave it," offer?
The saying, "we can't afford cheap things," is why SFBA startups pay so much - because there is too much multiples growth at stake to miss out of it by saving on small things. Do we just not have the same growth upside?
Our team is extremely small so the value of work contributed by each head (given the individual can successfully contribute in such an environment) is very high.
The issue is less finding takers and moreso finding the right takers. I've turned down people who were very interested because I wasn't sure about them. Unfortunately, I have been outbid on hires I was sure about which is very difficult to swallow. I would like to be able to offer at the upper end of the spectrum but the equity does have some value in the picture. I'm sure we could do an either or thing. Like you choose - either more cash or less with more equity. Because not everyone seems to be very interested in ownership. They just want to be paid.
Toronto is universally anchored to that 120 number, and 200 seems taboo. Whatever your company is doing, that's fantastic you can do it in Toronto, as QoL for people is really good, and it has the kind of culture pretty much everyone wants to live in.
There is so much more to life than money.
The upper boundary for an intermediate in Toronto is certainly $90-95k.
On the other hand, there are expenses that are higher! Taxes are higher for one as well as the cost of goods such as groceries. Although, the groceries case doesn't really hold because I find that groceries in SV or Seattle to be higher than where I am now in Canada.
The main point I'm trying to make is that is that straight up converting salary in another country straight to USD is a bad comparison of wealth.
You're right that you need to convert both sides of the equation but I still think that all things considered Toronto pay is pretty poor compared to the US.
An extra $35k salary would easily cover a much larger mortgage, and living expenses aside from the mortgage are almost identical.
The difference in rent or mortgage is easily covered by the city weighted salary, but you still have all the other expenses. Living is just expensive wherever you go, there is no escaping it. I made the decision that at 40 I don't want to be in a condo surrounded by traffic and people any more. It's been a bit of an eye opener and a big adjustment to accept the relatively low salary that comes with that decision.
I have worked remotely and been paid very well which has been good, but startups come and go and when I got to the final round of a more stable position with a large corporation they told me they were downgrading my salary offer by a significant amount because of where I lived.
A few points: A "senior" dev in Toronto would be someone with 8-10 years of experience. They can easily make 120+. I've hired many of them. Very few organizations in the GTA consider someone with 2-4 years a "senior", and those people will be lucky to make 90k. That make the COL in the GTA difficult.
If you truly are an amazing developer and you can't get a high salary in the GTA, get in touch.
Also, it would be interesting to see the ages of people who post. When I was in my 20's I'm sure I would have stayed in the Bay area if salaries were as good as they are now. But there really wasn't a _huge_ disparity in wages in the late 90's/Early 2000's between SV and elsewhere. I likely would have left the Bay area in my 30's though. And moving to Canada is one of the best decisions I feel I have ever made, especially considering the last 2 years.
EDIT: As a side note, I think outside of SV, ALL tech salaries (and all other industries)are too low and have been stagnant for the most part for a decade.
There are many amazing startups at any given moment in Toronto... but many of the folks involved have their sights set on FANG.
I just jumped jobs in Toronto and I found it very hard to find a job that pays $120k+ CAD, a developer with 6+ years of experience.
Edit: I'd prefer Siberia over sv, there is a reason talented people are getting the hell out of there and many major companies are building huge offices elsewhere.
MSFT probably around 180k-190k.
I knew DATA offered 300k++ for Principal.
All offers with RSUs (hence TC).
Show me any startup in Canada who'll pay $100k for two years of experience.
The endless fluff pieces are a bit tiresome.
Winter is worse than Toronto but not by much (and Ottawa winters seem worse than both, to the point a whole canal freezes)
Average and record low are lower in Ottawa though. Would be interesting to know about wind temps though.
- Healthiest city in North America [1]
- Montréal posts best job growth in 2017 among top 20 largest urban centers in Canada and the U.S. [2]
- Lowest unemployment rate since 2001 [3]
- Montréal is 2nd global artificial intelligence hub [4]
[1] https://www.spotahome.com/healthiest-cities-world [2] http://www.montrealinternational.com/en/blog/montreal-posts-... [3] https://montrealgazette.com/business/montreals-unemployment-... [4] http://www.montrealinternational.com/en/news/2017/11/montrea...
The 'low unemployment' bit is funny considering how many underemployed, homeless and in betweens there are. I don't remotely buy it. The economy in Montreal is reasonable but soft. I guess compared to itself in 2001?
The AI hub is correct for now, that might change.
I've lived here for quite some time and grew up in Toronto. I've lived in the Valley and around the world, I'm acquainted with most issues.
I’ve lived in Ottawa, Toronto and now Montreal. Montreal is by far more affordable than the other 2.
I’m constantly getting bombarded with recruiters with good offers.
Self employed, so can't comment on salary.
Most of the senior developers I know in Toronto work as independent contractors for large enterprises because they can get paid significantly more than the base salaries mentioned here. Contractor rates rival Silicon Valley salaries.
The downside of independent contracting is that you forgo sick pay, holiday pay, and employee-sponsored perks like extended health care. However, Ontario has an excellent public health system that covers all residents so the need for additional health benefits is questionable.
I sub out work now and then, I'll add an email address to my profile. I'd like to know your skill sets.
It should be realized that their is a great standard of living available outside of major tech centers all across the country(s). The opportunity is different, but the jobs do exist. I'd argue that their is far more opportunity outside of tech centers than within. A tech center addresses the issue of distribution. More specifically, of concentration. Having a small cluster of a 100 or so tech businesses conveniently located pales in comparison to the 10's of thousands scatter across the corporate landscape.
Its myopic to measure 'success' with such a short term metric. My measure of success is different at a wholesale level from my 20's to my 40's. Toronto is fantastic for those less than 30. Tons to see and do, easy access to everything. Flash forward 20 years with a family and kids and it's not so attractive anymore. What were once benefits are now become detriments.
That being said, today is my last day at work in my less than 150K population town. I start a new job in 2 weeks, +$$, +benefits etc. Same scenario, smaller location. My compensation is is within striking distance of the wages in Toronto's tech center. But without the heavy cost of accommodations (all else being marginally cheaper) but more importantly, I'm 5 minutes from a entire world of green space and the crushing humanity that is found in all major centers, Toronto included.
Enjoy your success T.O. :D
Or are you speaking entirely theoretically?
I was lucky enough to learn from a team as we went through a google acquisition and watch and learn as the technology was scaled in both the context of a startup, and later inside Google. I was the whitebelt in the back of the room but that experience of working in that team was the most valuable experience I could have ever hoped for and I still regularly mail the people that I absorbed from to let them know how grateful I am to have taken me along on that journey. It's not a common experience but that completely humbled me and fixed my dunning-kruger arrogant ass.
A lot of startups, but a significant amount seem very "gimmicky". (Probably less than SV, but it seems there are less companies that "started up" then grew to a significant size). That or you can work for the Megacorps, usually in the suburbs in their lifeless campuses.
Not to mention the salaries.
Also Canada tech companies in general seems to use less open source than USA or Europe.
I hadn't heard about the other two
These comments are hilarious and so typical of Toronto - there is a reason it's called the "screwface capital" of the world and I think it really rings true.