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Comment by tptacek | Hacker News Reader

This is pretty weird. I don't care how much flights and lodging costs, not because I can afford to do whatever I want, but because I simply don't take travel vacations very often. I can spend somewhat outlandishly on travel and not ruin my annual budget. On the other hand, there are things I do routinely that I have to be price sensitive about; for instance: I am price sensitive about parking fees. For that matter, despite its status as "wealth level 2", I am more price sensitive about restaurant meals than about travel.

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Travel is highly variable and can get really expensive if you aren't super careful, even if you aren't really going all out. A two-week vacation for two to Europe, staying in the (not over the top) Four seasons, and going to reasonably nice-restaurants could easily cost $20k airfare +8K accomodation + $5K daily incidental. You have to be at different level of wealth to take a $33K vacation without worrying about how to pay for it. I don't have any friends at that level.

On the flip side, going out to dinner with friends, and discovering that you may be on the hook for $100, and not stressing about how you are going to pay for it, is withing reach of a lot more people. I have several friends who have reached that level.

I think the levels are pretty good. Though I would also add two levels of wealth that materially change people's happiness - L0 (Can I pay my bus fare, rent, groceries without stressing. L0 is very, very real). And also, L4 - which is no longer flying commercial. Being able to go where you want on your schedule, without ever having to walk through an Airport/TSA is, I have heard, a material change to personal happiness.

I think to spend 20k on airfare you would have to be purposefully avoiding good deals.

Not really; international business class for a couple could easily run into the 20k territory depending on time of year.

Then why flying business class if you care about that sort of cost? I've heard horror stories about economy class in USA, but I've flown 9h flights European-level economy and that's quite bearable (though not so pleasant) experience.

I was kind of thinking the same thing reading this and the above comment. I'm sure with a bit of saving I could afford a business class trip, but spending the money to spend extra time on vacation or doing something interesting seems to outweigh the thought of having some extra legroom or food.

If you're not a millionaire and pay business class from your own pockets, you're insane.

Most millionaires I know don't fly business class. People whose company is paying for their travel (and possibly are billing back a client), people using points, and the ultra-wealthy (>$5mm net worth) are the only people I know who would drop $10K on a 15 hour flight.

For two? Not at all - I've been on a couple of $9k-$10k business trips that I booked following company policy (advance notice, take advantage of best available pricing, etc...). And this is just business class for a couple, as well. I'm not even thinking about flying first class in emirates, or, heaven forbid, having to fly with children. I booked my mother using points from Canada to Singapore, in business, and the flight (if I had paid with cash) would have been $8300 - and that was after looking 3-4 days in either direction for best pricing.

>just business class

I find this laughable. I thought it was common understanding that business class prices were significantly disconnected from the prices that the average person pays for a flight

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I'm referring to the seats in the front of the plane, somewhat wider, lie-flat on long flights, better food. This is the type of flight that people who aren't being super-price conscious fly, so called wealth level 3. By definition, anybody flying in coach is not level 3.

Um... That's not true.

My spouse and I could spend whatever we wanted (your 20k or whatever) on flights to Europe from the US in business class; we could pay in cash tomorrow and not really have to worry. But we don't, because that would be stupid.

Flying business class to Europe for 10k each is not something we value.

Similarly, we don't buy steak when we go out to eat. My spouse can cook a steak from our local farmer better than any steak I've paid $45+ for. We don't feel restaurant steak is a good value. Seafood? Yeah, we'll pay for that -- don't know how to cook it well, so it's a good value for us.

There is a significant difference between price and value. Coach is a fine value for me. I'm short, and I want to give my money to restaurateurs in Portugal, not American Airlines. The pleasure per dollar is a much better ratio. (BTW, Portugal is a great value :) )

The only people in their right mind who would subject themselves to the ungodly dignity/torture of coach travel rather than business would be those who don't have money and can't afford the significant difference in comfort that you get in business. I'm 5'6" (short), and travel about 140K miles/year, and I can't think of anything I do each year more miserable than sitting in coach for 14-16 hour flights.

But note - I'm not suggesting that you are making the wrong decision - just that you are making it because you have to think about the cost of flying coach, you aren't at "L3" wealth and so need to think about the marginal value associated with the money you are spending. 99% of people at L3 don't hesitate for a second to book a business class ticket. (In fact, when you are truly at L3 you probably consider flying first class (emirates has awesome First Class Cabins) - or, if we want to stretch the definition a little, opting out of flying commercial altogether)

It is very weird to me that people value their comfort on an airline seat at a rate on the order of $1000 per hour. I suppose L3 wealth is pretty big.

When I first started traveling for work 10 years ago I thought it was nuts to pay $8K-$10K for tickets, and usually just had the company buy coach tickets for $1800-$2k. My thinking was that for the 12-14 hour flights, it seemed to my naive mind that spending an extra $6k was "wasteful".

After many years of traveling north of 100K miles/year, trust me, traveling in coach sucks, and anytime I'm forced to do so I'm miserable. If I had the money, I would never, ever, take any flight > 6-10 hours in coach.

Absurd

You can just as easily spend $1500 a person for a two week vacation in Europe and enjoy essentially all the same things as if you're paying 10x as much.

$5K daily incidental, are you kidding me?

Don't fly business class unless your business is paying or you're on a honeymoon or something.

Offtopic, but: why would business actually pay for business class?

You arrive and(generally) go straight to the office. You want your employee to be rested and productive.

Generally it is to ensure their employees are well-rested ahead of the important meeting if it is a very long flight. Add in frequent flyer programs to reward an employee’s airline loyalty, and many business class seats are free upgrades for the employee. After a while, it really becomes a consolation prize.

If your company "always" buys business class tickets for employees, that includes buying business class tickets for the most important person: You

My prior company had a policy that all flights greater than 6 hours were business class flights.

There were a few reasons - there are health issues associated with flying packed into a coach seat. Employees who have to fly a lot for work, if it was requested they fly in coach, might decide to leave their jobs pretty quickly if they couldn't fly business. And, somewhat related, it's considered a "soft benefit" (and 100% non-taxable benefit by employees in the USA) being able to fly business, stay in five star hotels, and have a reasonable ($100 or so) per-diem when engaging in business travel.

So that employees don’t try to avoid critical business travel.

When Apple started flying engineers in business class to China, suddenly they got dramatically more likely to go to work out production issues rather than trying to convince management that the issues would work themselves out. A few million dollars in employee travel was immaterial to the increase in production reliability.

$5K over two-weeks. Definitely not absurd. Remember how this conversation got started - we were discussing "Level 3" wealth, that is, people who don't need to worry about how much a vacation costs. People who pay $1500 per person for a two-week vacation in europe are definitely not in what we would call "Level 3" wealth. Anybody who flies in Coach is absolutely not Level 3 wealth.

> somewhat outlandishly

Hotels run up the scale to 67,000+$ a night. That's the tipping point for not caring about travel costs not simply bounding your costs by a hidden 'within my price range' scale. Interest on 1 billion will cover a 70k / night hotel room for the rest of your life it's simply not important.

Ok, but if that's really the definition we're using, there's a pretty enormous gap between "not price sensitive about food* and "not price sensitive about travel", so much so that most very rich people are in the middle; after all, even very reach people occasionally fly commercial, or fractional-ownership a private jet.

Meals can easily cost 2,000$ a pop. So it's more like a 10x - 100x jump. Which IMO is a reasonable scale for wealth going from 10,000$ to 10,000,000,000$.

Are you sure your price sensitivity is rational then?

Why wouldn't it be?

Your price sensitivity would rationally be set to look at the opportunity cost across spheres of spending- an extra $100 on your flight is 10 days of parking tickets or something like that.

It seems like you're falling to the "Mental Accounting" [1] fallacy, wherein you create buckets of money but forget that they're fungible. You splurge in one area and cut back in another. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_accounting

No, my point is that different decisions in how I park can make a bigger impact on my bottom line than whether I fly Southwest or American First Class. I take a real travel vacation maybe once every 3-4 years.

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