Maybe show some examples of errors Grain would catch that JavaScript wouldn't, like Elm does: http://elm-lang.org/
This is something I wonder about JS: there are a lot of places that exceptions happen in (say) Python that just return `NaN` or `undefined` in javascript. Is it intentional? Is it a good idea?
Examples: the multiplication operator essentially never throws. Out-of-bounds (or "not found") lookups don't throw.
I suspect the logic is "only throw if you have the wrong type for that operation" -- like calling something that isn't a function, or looking up an attribute on something that isn't an object. (Except multiplication for things that aren't numbers is fine, I guess...)
I'm writing a dynamically typed language and don't know if it's better to go the JS way or the Python way. Or do something horrible like having multiplication return a `Maybe` type...
Here's a little thought experiment: Your program ends up with an "undefined" in some variable 'x'. How did that happen? In JS it can happen in any number of weird and wonderful ways, e.g. you called a function which did a 'v[i]' or it could have just fallen off the end because someone forgot to check a return path, or...
In Python there's much less scope what the problem could be. Since v[i] will just throw an IndexError, you know that the problem couldn't possibly be stray index or similar.
That is a much better experience for finding problems in one's code.
The web powers through!
It has everything to do with sandboxing (or not). Ads being served by third parties should not be able to influence the JS running in the page.
Users generally ignore all messages coming from their computers. They routinely blame their computers for doing things that the computers are not doing at all. Like, oh I can’t find the document I wrote three weeks ago -> obviously my computer is being disobedient.
Anyway, I don’t blame the users. To them the computer is entirely uninteresting and they don’t want to care about the sorts of concerns that we technically minded people do.
A broken page is a broken page and it doesn’t matter to the user why the page is broken. The only thing that matters to them is, can they do the thing they wanted to do or not. And like the sibling said, the web browsers are surprisingly good at handling broken code.
"Order total: undefined" is hugely different from "There was an error -- maybe just leave the page, yeah?".
There’s an equivalence you can make between a type and a mathematical set, where you say that the type is the set of all possible values for that type.
In both JavaScript and math, multiplication of numbers is an operation that has a special property called closure, which means that the return type is the same as the input types. Multiply a number by another number and you will ALWAYS get a number back. The inputs and the outputs are in the same set, which means you can go nuts multiplying numbers and you’ll never have to check your values to make sure they’re still numbers; it can be safely assumed.
JavaScript gives NaN a type of “number” as a clever compromise. Instead of throwing an error when multiplying a number by a non-number, JS allows multiplication to still return a “number” (`4 * ‘a’ === NaN`) and then you don’t need to ever worry about accidentally “leaving” the set of numbers (`NaN * 10 === NaN`).
More likely than not though, multiplying a number and a string is just not a useful thing to do. With a good type system, a program that could wind up in a situation of multiplying a string and a number can be rejected by the compiler.
So in a roundabout answer to your question, a lot of “what then?!” situations can be entirely avoided with a good type system. For the remaining situations like accessing an element in an array that may not exist, a Maybe can make a lot of sense.
(Maybe Float turns out to be just like JavaScript’s numbers, but instead of NaN you have Nothing.)
Computer numbers in general have all sorts of issues like this where clean mathematical theory is broken. NaN, Infinity and -Infinity, for example, are all similar to absorbing elements[1] under multiplication in the sense that once you get that as a result, you can't do the inverse operation (division) to get back to your original inputs.
Compile time is better than runtime, evaluation time is better than via explicit value inspection.
Non-signalling NaNs provide an easy way of distributing an invalid value widely throughout a program's data structures before it's discovered.
The only reason to go the other way, and have silent NaN propagation, is if they're expected to occur very frequently. For example, consider how awkward SQL would be if evaluating over null values triggered errors - the conditionality of expressions would need to become very elaborate.
Monadic approaches to errors (Maybe, Rust's Result, that conditionally apply a function to a value only if it's not an error) blur the line between these two. Because they rely on data flow, they feel a bit like non-signalling NaNs. OTOH, evaluation generally bubbles up using monadic return types, and errors bubble up too, just like exceptions - exceptions, and consistent, universal use of monadic return types, are isomorphic and can have the same evaluation characteristics.
I feel like there is a small but important difference. Encoding exceptions in monadic return types allows the type system to guarantee that all exceptions are handled, or at least considered by the programmer. That is a very strong guarantee, especially as you put up layers and layers of foreign libraries and abstractions.
Yes and no respectively.
It's intentional in the sense that the original Javascript was not intended to fault (much) because it was for basic scripting, so if one small script blew up it should not bring down the entire page's scripting. This also resulted in Javascript's exceptions facilities being very shitty (exception handling is not very flexible/convenient, and while that may have changed since — not sure — for a long time it was impossible to sub-type the native Error).
However it's not really a good idea for non-trivial software systems, it makes errors much harder to notice, recover from and debug. In fact "modern" JS APIs tend to fault e.g. parsing invalid JSON raises SyntaxError, it doesn't return null or undefined; and promises and async functions will convert exceptions to failures.
One thing I think I like about JS over Python is that empty containers are "truthy". This, combined with non-raising missed lookups, tends to be pretty ergonomic. For me, at least.
Though it is messier -- in Python `key in d` is well entrenched as an idiom, and in JS `if(d.key)` misfires if the value is zero, and `if(d.key === undefined)` doesn't discriminate between a missed lookup and a stored `undefined`. Though the latter must be discouraged, right?
PHP's json_decode does that. And yes `null` is also returned as a PHP NULL.
> Though it is messier -- in Python `key in d` is well entrenched as an idiom, and in JS `if(d.key)` misfires if the value is zero
Or false, or null, or the empty string, or NaN.
FWIW `if (key in d)` also works in JS if d is a native object, though you need `d.has(key)` if d is an actual Map object instead.
In practice that causes the output of your program be either Infinity or NaN but the problem is that is usually never what you want.
Then you want to know "Why do I get a NaN here?" and you will have to study all of your program and single step its execution to understand why you got an answer you din't want which is of little value to anybody.
Problem with Infinity is you can not come back from there. It does not cancel out if you subtract it.
Instead IN PRACTICE it is much better to catch errors early with the help of the type-system, unit-tests, and assertions.
It is an interesting challenge: How do I define the type "Any number except zero" and have my type-system then catch divisions by zero?
This wasn't javascript's idea. They're just following the spec. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_754#Exception_handling
As John Carmack said: "...if you have a large enough codebase, any class of error that is syntactically legal probably exists there."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NaN
The purpose of silent propagation is for the expression to be checked at the end of the overall expression rather then have every operation itself be checked. It's a speed optimization. It is by far more user friendly for an invalid operation to throw an error.
For example
for this following operation
(100/2/2/0/2)
without NaNs the system must check 4 operations 100/2, 50/2, 25/2, 12.5/0 for an error. Every arithmetic operation whether it has a division by zero or not will have to have additional checks.
With NaNs the computer just runs through the entire operation with no checks and the user just explicitly does a check for a single NaN at the end. The Maybe Monad operates under the same concept when used as an output type for a division operation.
The same logic applies for javascript "undefined".
Why? They all target browsers. What else would you compare it to?
The shiny new toy is wasm-bindgen (https://github.com/rustwasm/wasm-bindgen), which will soon allow the use of WebIDL (https://heycam.github.io/webidl/) to wrap the entire browser API, if I understand correctly.
In practice, it all seems to work pretty well. But for public-facing sites, you need to watch the number of dependencies you include and keep the *.wasm size down.
This ability is a tool and nothing precludes a wasm target for Elm (in fact Evan specifically expressed interest in it: https://github.com/WebAssembly/gc/pull/1#discussion_r1115011...).
Either way, comparing Grain to JS or Elm is anything but pointless, at the end of the day it's competing with them.
PureScript is a Haskell dialect that was built specifically to run on top of JavaScript engines. Specifically, compared with Haskell, it is strictly evaluated (whereas Haskell is non-strict / lazy, well almost). However it eliminates some of Haskell's baggage, but retains Haskell's functional purity.
It's all around an awesome programming language for FP that targets JavaScript engines, far surpassing any other attempt.
I'm curious how they handle JSON parsing. For example in Scala/Play you define the class you want to parse to, and if the JSON passed in at runtime doesn't match the shape of that class then you get a runtime exception. Obviously it'd be nice if that didn't happen, but I can't think of any alternative that would make sense.
In more detail:
It's purely functional, so it cannot handle I/O at all on its own. It needs some sort of harness into which it fits which handles that, and which then calls the pure functions in Elm / Grain. In Elm's case that harness is JavaScript, and it seems to be a similar case for Grain. (Maybe for Grain it's WebAssembly? I don't honestly know enough about Web Dev to say).
During I/O (including user input, and sending data over a network), runtime exceptions can still be thrown, but once it's been converted and passed into the functional part, it's in a sense correctly formatted by definition, and the purely functional Elm / Grain parts don't throw runtime exceptions at all.
Returning a sum of success + error, as e.g. Rust's Serde[0] or Elm's Json.Decode[1] do.
The developer gets the feedback that the operation has failed at runtime, but they also get the feedback that the operation can fail and they must handle it somehow at compile-time, even ignoring the issue is an explicit decision.
[0] https://docs.serde.rs/serde_json/de/fn.from_str.html
[1] http://package.elm-lang.org/packages/elm-lang/core/latest/Js...
In Play this is actually something like JsSuccess/JsError, not an exception, although Play is pragmatic (aka dirty) at times, so it's possible that it has functions throwing exceptions.
https://github.com/grain-lang/grain/blob/master/src/grain-st...
Or they don't support indexing at all.