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Comment by Fricken | Hacker News Reader

When I travel I'm not doing it to relax, but to go on an adventure, to experience other worlds, push myself, and get outside my comfort zone. Otherwise, I totally agree. All the people who go on cruises or Mexican resort vacations so they can lay around and be pandered to, that never made any sense to me. I do that at home just fine, for a fraction of the cost and with none of the hassle.

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People who can "vacation at home" either:

a. don't have kids

b. don't have relatives and friends nearby

c. don't upkeep their own house or living quarters (has a maid/servent/relative living with them that does everything)

The thought of staying home for my vacation, at least for me, is met with feelings of intense drudgery. There is nothing relaxing to me about the suburban/urban rat race I live in.

A couple of years ago, I took a flight to Jamaica and stayed at a Butler Resort. I literally sat on turquoise water, white sand beaches all day and had rum drinks brought to me on a silver platter. It was all inclusive, including the spa. If it doesn't make sense to you, you aren't going to the right places. If cost is an issue, I wouldn't have been planning a trip to begin with.

a. let the kids visit a summer camp for a week or two

b. invite your friends

c. hire a helping hand for your vacation. That's still cheaper than going on a regular vacation

I'm not a parent, but if there's one thing I've for-sure learned about parenthood, it's that it gives you license to passive-aggressively dismiss the perspective of any and all non-parents.

Yep, and it goes on to great extents. I don’t have kids but all coworkers of mine get a “one up” for doing the same things I’m doing while being parents.

7 billion people have been born in last 100 years. Raising kids isn’t abnormal.

No, but it’s hard on a level you can’t understand until you do it.

This is an example of dismissing someone else's perspective.

Have you considered that someone might choose not to have children because they understand how difficult it is?

You could say they correctly assume it’s hard, but to really understand it, they’d need to experience it, no?

No. There are many ways to understand.

They could witness a close friend or sibling struggling to raise children.

They could simply reason about the commitment of time and money required and take note of all the other things in life that parenthood would require them to give up.

You can hear about the experience of a POW, but it won't ever be the same as being a POW. Not trying to equate the two, just showing how telling/imagining aren't quite the same as experiencing.

Sure, but that's true for everything, there's nothing unique about parenting here. I.e., you similarly don't have quite the same experience as a no-kids person who has depression.

Yet this argument seems to come exclusively from parents, assigning parenthood a special status, which makes no sense, since parenting is extremely commom.

This is the same argument as “men will never understand women because to truly understand a woman, you have to be a woman” Well, empathy is quite a real thing. Also everyone’s experience is different, so even if you are a woman, you “truly don’t know what it means to be a woman”.

Once you're arguing the philosophy of knowing something as learned knowledge versus personal experience, the discussion has kind of gone off the rails.

Given that people can relate to plenty of other experiences, I'm not sure why they wouldn't be able to relate to such a common one.

On top of that, I too have noticed that parents often talk down to people that haven't experienced parenthood.

Almost as if becoming a parent is very difficult and gives you enlightenment that can be found in no other way.

But taking care of children IS very difficult. And, yes, being a parent is the only way to be enlightened in that way. Nothing else will give you the same experience.

Absolutely agree.

Now I don’t talk down to non-parents, because they made that choice or had the choice made for them (temporarily or permanently).

It’s crazy stressful but at the same time so joyous.

> Almost as if becoming a parent is very difficult and gives you enlightenment that can be found in no other way.

You got it!

Now, the "talking down to" is annoying. But if it's about non-parents telling parents about how easy life should be, and parents replying along the lines of "fool, no." it's absolutely warranted.

Honestly in this case; it's somewhat true. Picture a world where you have ~no control of your daily life. You wake up when you hear the screaming in the monitor. You completely structure every non-work hour around 3 hour blocks of potted plants eat/sleep/shit/nap cycles with periods of incredible stress (and uh.. joy) sprinkled liberally through (Holy crap, was that red in the horrible poop running down my leg? Oh we gave him radish, whew.)

I'm being a little facetious here, but i'm just saying that everyones life situation is different. As a relatively new parent, In that situation, I can see it being incredibly hard to simply 'relax' at home. More than anything you'll finally have time to notice the liquified pees that has hardened on the ceiling than actually relax. When i was in my 20s every vacation was 2 weeks of Hostels and hikes, but we are all in different life situations and that doens't make one persons opinion of a 'vacation' more correct than anothers.

PTSD, depression, poverty, lousy roomates, crappy job, etc., all can generate experiences that are not so dissimilar to what you describe. Including, some of these conditions can cause suicide, which might imply they're much worse than parenting, which, ultimately, is perceived as a positive.

Why is parenting, something that gets lots of external support and understanding, the special one here, and not any of these other things? Depressed people don't get a "my life is so hard" horse to sit on continually, often quite the opposite, they have to work hard to hide it.

There's no evidence that parents are special people, none whatsoever, they are best described as people in a tough situation, but there are quite a few different ways to be in a tough situation, and tough situations do not always make people better.

Fair point. Like all situations it’s just another kind of a challenging situation. I’m a first time dad to 3 week old. Our day needs to be structured as little 3 hour days. Sleep deprivation is very real. We get by, by appreciating “other people must have had it worse and their kids did just fine. look at the single moms, or people in poverty, or parents of colic kids. We will do just fine! Nothing special”

> PTSD, depression, poverty, lousy roomates, crappy job, etc., all can generate experiences that are not so dissimilar to what you describe.

Imagine this, and on the top of it being a parent of 3 young children. Unless parents are immune to these conditions.

Any of these problems can be permuted.

But only one of these problems (parenthood) has a special social status.

I would imagine that it is still easier to relax at home than in a foreign place with little kids. If your kids are older and they can more or less roam on their own, yes, it's easier to go on vacation but with little ones now you have to worry that they don't run off, don't get to close to the water, don't run into the bushes after a lizard, or try to swim into deeper waters etc. At home you can at least relax about the environment since you know its safer for them and they are more familiar with it.

Very true, good description of why eating out with children can be hard. Doesn't factor in that you can leave the kids with the (out of town so you don't get baby sitting often) grandparents for a week while you relax on a beach/resort somewhere :)

Free babysitting is a luxury that not everyone has access to :)

Becoming a parent is easy, it's the other part of looking after the kids that is more troublesome and difficult but, agreed, some parents do seem to talk down people who haven't experienced or chose not to experience it. At the end of the day, having kids is a choice (hopefully), and one shouldn't pull the parent card to convey a point... and do kids offer you enlightenment? Sure but so does a good book.

Just don't give me advice about kids (if you don't have kids) and we'll get along just fine ;)

Please do give me advice about other things that you know about and have experience with when I need it.

My only advice is to try not to be self-righteous, but this has nothing to do with parenthood.

The difference is that everyone who has kids has known what life is like with and without kids. The opposite is not true.

This is true for lots of things, though, many much more exclusive than parenthood, why is having kids singled out?

And you shouldn’t speak as if you have first hand experience on those things either.

Would you take the advice of a childless pediatrician?

Absolutely. Parenthood and child medicine are very different things.

The OP said not to give advice about kids. So the question likely is asking if he’d take advice about kids (not about child medicine) from said profession.

I could advise someone not to jump off a bridge even if I didn't build it.

that would depend a lot on whether they never had children or had children that died at a young age

Medicine doesn't quite work that way in the modern world.

A lot of people suck at parenting which is obvious for everyone but them. Listening to some advice would help them but usually it's the attitude you present that prevents it.

Here is one example: if your kid tries to sabotage you into buying drugs (sweets) in the middle of the supermarket by throwing a tantrum you don't cave. It's simple and obvious yet so many "just don't give me advice" parents are unable to process and apply it rationalizing why they are in very special situation and no one else could possibly understand. They go and buy more drugs to their already overweight sugar addicted children just to get some temporary relief contributing to child's demise in the process.

"Dismissing the perspective of any and all non-<insert group>" is a generalisation and not unique to parents. Though as a parent I have noticed it too.

And vice versa, apparently.

All parents have been non-parents. None of the non-parents have been parents. So let me tell you one thing: you have no idea.

Or they can’t afford to do anything other than stay at home during some downtime...

Not everyone makes $100k+ a year and can save for a vacation away from home.

The gas lighting I've seen on this topic in recent years is weird. Who's paying for it or what's their angle? Some kind of travel startup?

I can afford it but I find travelling stressful as you have to get to the airport, go through security, check in at the hotel etc.

Also even though I can afford it, it rarely seems like the best use of the money.

I mainly travel because I have to visit my family (I live abroad) or my SO wants to visit somewhere.

I agree- it rarely seems like the best use of money. At least often.

> There is nothing relaxing to me about the suburban/urban rat race I live in.

Then go camping. Going to Jamaica and paying through the nose to be waited on by other people who also hate their rat race jobs isn't a sustainable solution to this problem.

Because MMM appeals to some tech workers, maybe this will help: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/09/20/seek-not-to-be-en...

Though 'paying through the nose' is different for everyone. There is no 'one size fits all' approach to something as personal as how to spend ones (generally limited) free time.

1) of course I don't

2) I love to meet them at a coffee or play boardgames and it is relaxing

3) I finish all house work in less than an hour and don't have servants.

> I finish all house work in less than an hour

Teach me.

Typically this is some combination of:

1. Make enough money to never cook

2. Never cook

3. Live in a tiny Bay Area apartment

4. Have no pets

5. Live alone

I live in a four bedroom home with a huge yard. The secret is to clean as you go about your life. If you leave a room, look around, see if there is something you should take with you. Do dishes while you are waiting for something to cook. Buy a cordless vacuum for quick access. When the weekend comes around your house is already clean.

Also, the less stuff you own, the less stuff you have to organize/dust/hide.

How do I teach the others in my family to do this? I've tried for years but they still resist or are incapable of it!

I'll let you know when I have kids. I did teach my dog to pick up her toys though.

An alternative to not cooking is to enjoy cooking. I look forward to cooking, and enjoy the time I spend prepping for me and my partner, so I don't count it as housework.

Cleanup definitely counts though.

I have occasionally gotten sad when my wife was like "let's just order a pizza" and I wanted to cook something. Admittedly the cleanup sucks, but putting effort into something, completing it and then almost immediately getting positive(usually) feedback is sometimes rare, and can be incredibly rewarding. And that's just from an analytic perspective!

I have 2 primary or lower school aged kids and do upkeep my own house, I also have relatives nearby though I am not sure how that is relevant. I love stay at home holidays and am on one now. We do take non stay at home vacations but I don't find them as relaxing. This week I am looking forward to walking the kids to school (something too time prohibitive normally) hiking, reading, playing in the shed and if I feel like it some home maintenance too. Horses for courses I guess :)

I have a couple of issues with your post.

> don't upkeep their own house or living quarters

I have done a staycation (and enjoyed it) and yes I keep my own house. I cooked the things I want to cook but don't normally have time/drive to do so, I did the things that I normally have to ration my time on (playing games/guitar, reading, outdoor walks). It was quite pleasant.

> If it doesn't make sense to you, you aren't going to the right places.

I completely disagree. I did a long weekend in an all inclusive resort similar to what you described on Antigua. I'll never do one again. (At least not with just two of us, maybe if I had children it would be different). I had no access to the things I love (you have to ration books, not bringing a guitar across the Atlantic). I found the whole "make friends with the people you're tipping to bring you drinks/food" thing very strange.

I would much rather stay with some people (recently usually AirBnbs in a room in the hosts homes), get some recommendations of places to eat/drink/see that they like to go to, and explore with my best friend/partner.

> If cost is an issue, I wouldn't have been planning a trip to begin with.

Cost isn't a binary thing. There are otions between spending a week in your house doing laundry and staying in an 800 dollar a night all inclusive hotel and 2000 dollars on flights. I can't afford to spend 10 nights in an all inclusive resort of that caliber while flying to the other side of the world in business class - does that mean I can't have an abroad trip?

I did a 4 day trip to Palma in Majorca last September. It was stunningly beautiful, the food was incredible and it was a wonderful trip. We spent 300 pounds on flights, about 50 pounds on transport (taxis/airport buses) while we were there, and maybe about 500 pounds while we were there. It was indulgent, and the entire trip was cheaper than 2 nights in an all inclusive resort. I know which I would do again.

From what I have seen, the only thing more hectic than a coworker's home life with kids is his vacation logistics. Parents often don't have vacations for themselves, they develop complex activity programs around the kids!

On your last point, I have mostly been to classic resort destinations as part of boondoggle work trips. I actually find them excruciatingly boring. I'd rather have a "staycation" than go to those on my own volition.

But, I do appreciate a good vacation. For me, that's a retreat to the mountains for hiking, snowshoeing, or skiing. I like to get out of the sensorium of my coastal CA home and enter that of high alpine forests, peaks, and valleys. I don't travel/live to eat and sleep though. I eat and sleep to travel/live.

I also don't need to keep going to different places to sustain some novelty factor. I can thoroughly enjoy seeing the same forests and mountains in different seasons, years, and decades. The forest changes over these timescales and so does the visitor. Each encounter is unique.

When I lived in Texas in a house with a back yard and several nice walking trails within 200 yards from it I used to say the same thing.

Then I sold the house and moved into a tiny 1br apartment in Manhattan. I loved the change and enjoyed the energy of the city, sunny weekends in Central Park, etc. but... Within a year I started to crave for just being outside with a book/drink by myself, without the crowds and the noise. We booked one of those tropical vacations and I was surprised how nice it was.

> * I do that at home just fine, for a fraction of the cost and with none of the hassle*

My most-relaxing vacations are getting an Airbnb on a beach or a lake with friends. We don't leave the house, don't have an agenda, and get to enjoy novel sights, sounds and smells. The combination is so incredibly refreshing.

Sometimes for us, but especisllly for me, a vacation is not dealing with anyone except my wife. Often we just want to silently enjoy each others company, read on our iPads and eat and drink with abandon.

You can’t share my-life-is-better-than-yours vacation selfies that way though.

Do you find there are a lot of people in your circle that post those?

My friends (I'm 54) are probably older and more boring than yours, but like if I open Facebook right now there will be grandbaby pictures, look what I did in my shed this weekend, and politics. That's pretty much the formula year round for my timeline.

I strongly suspect that's a trend with younger people. I don't see my friends and coworkers experiencing the same type of satisfaction when posting something that I see younger users having.

Hell, I'm glad I'm not the type of old person that doesn't know how to use Facebook. Just that is really enough satisfaction for me.

I'm 27 and my closest friends don't bother. For a while I thought I was missing something, but every time I try to participate in Instagram, I only feel like it reduces my enjoyment of a thing, because I gotta spend a couple seconds fucking with my phone to get a picture.

It is great to take a couple story videos here and there though. I like looking at those months after.

Tbh I think Instagram makes people more active and healthier.

I'm pretty sure half my friends wouldn't do the things they do if they couldn't instagram it afterwards. Like going for a hike just to have your instagram content for the day.

Hey whatever works. Pokemon go was great for that as well.

I wish Pokemon Go had been the game we've all actually been waiting on. With familiar Pokemon PVP and real-world Pokemon scavenging. The gym concept they have is just not that much fun. But I guess the advantage to Pokemon go is being accessible to younger audiences who weren't alive when red and blue came out (I think I was nearly 30 then!) and also that the lack of more concrete game mechanics lends the game a more expressive nature. I've seen people that just play to collect their favorite one, and that's kind of magical to me.

It'd be cheaper if this were a real service: http://lifefaker.com/

I've done the all inclusive Mexican resort thing and I've done whirlwind vacations going to multiple cities across the world and spending most of my day walking, exploring, etc.

I've found the former helps me physically and mentally recharge better than the latter, but the latter, while perhaps physically and mentally draining in some ways, is way more stimulating and enriching than the former.

In the end, it depends on what I really need. Now that I know enough about myself,I can make better use of that time. There doesn't need to be one "right" type of vacation, any different strokes for different folks and what not.

We're doing both relaxing and having an adventure (kayaking, whale watching, snorkeling, hiking etc). We only prefer breakfast included so we can get quickly going in the morning, otherwise we prefer to eat in different places or maybe in the same place. It really depends. We also like going to the bach to relax and swim. Staying at home is quite boring and the city is exhausting. Your brain gets stuck without new experiences. If we lived in the countryside it would be quite different, but then there are choirs to do in and around the house which on vacation get done be the staff.

>When I travel I'm not doing it to relax, but to go on an adventure, to experience other worlds, push myself, and get outside my comfort zone.

I too don't care to be pandered to in foreign resorts. Can you share some specific things you do to push yourself and get outside of your comfort zone when you travel.

Well, there's a big difference between being at home vs somewhere far away on a beautiful beach.

Buy a house on the beach? :)

There is something in the middle where you go to the beach, relax, and practice some sports without rushing to the office. Obviously, since you have a few weeks of vacations you should decide what kind of vacation you want for the year.

I live in Denver. Laying around and being pandered to here is much more expensive than doing it in many other countries. So we can actually save a lot of money by traveling.

And it’s a smaller footprint on the environment. Less carbon, fewer tourists spoiling places (places which get overrun by tourists).

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