Intel delays 10nm Cannon Lake processors, again, until late 2019
theinquirer.net
theinquirer.net
>Moore's Law scales to at least 9nm: technologist
>It'll be at least a human generation before Moore's Law begins to run out of gas at around the 9nm and even then it may thrive, TSMC's chief technologist said Tuesday (March 12). Calvin Chenming Hu told an audience at the annual Semico Summit conference here that the 9nm node "can be ready more or less on time, in 2028 according to long-term forecasts or 2024 according to the 2002 (industry roadmap)."
Intel is off by 4-5 years according to their initial estimates (in 2011) of hitting 10nm, but they are 5-10 years ahead of where TSMC thought we would be 15+ years ago. TSMC was manufacturing at 10nm last year, incidentally (Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835).
They're both process nodes, with certain minor-ish differences here and there. TSMC calls theirs 7 nm, Intel calls theirs 10 nm.
Their performance characteristics might be around the same. In practice... who knows. We do know that Intel's current 10 nm CPUs are pretty much broken ~ best they could currently do was useless laptop-grade 2.5 GHz dual-core with no functional iGPU. Not sure about the HT, though.
I use to own an i740 way back in the day, and my cousin even worked on that video driver. With nVidia's buy out of 3Dfx and PowerVR pretty much only doing mobile phones/tablets, it'd be nice to see a 3rd player in the nVidia/AMD space again.
I know Matrox still exists, but for what I can tell, they just make cards for 10~20 monitor setups (kiosks, stores, airports, etc).
But who can predict what will happen...
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/12/11/intel_plans_1500_10...
In 2011 they were expecting 10nm in 2016. So it was not really off by 4 - 5 years. More like 3 - 4 years.
>TSMC's chief technologist said Tuesday (March 12).
Somewhere along the line TSMC's node naming no longer follows Intel's node naming. So that 9nm they mention is more like today's TSMC 5nm. So if you look at 2024 for TSMC's 5nm it isn't too far off. TSMC is planning to have 5nm in 2020. The 4 years speed up has been from heavy investment of Mobile SoC and industry scales changes that were not foreseen at the time.
Copy paste from my posting yesterday:
EDIT: it seems the twitter post got deleted.
EDIT2: anandtech still has the pictures: https://www.anandtech.com/show/13119/intels-xeon-scalable-ro...
> If the rumor [0] that Intel's first 10nm server chip will only release mid 2020 is true, then AMD's shares will probably skyrocket again if they truly can release their Zen 2 server CPU mid 2019 (on 7nm which is comparable to Intel's 10nm).
[0] https://twitter.com/david_schor/status/1022142835989118977
TSMC is already doing 7nm mass production right now:
https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20180622PD204.html
(arguably, what they call "7nm" isn't quite that, but still...)
Yes, intel's 10nm absolutely smashes Samsung, GF and TSMC's 10nm processes. Yes Intel's 10nm should be very competitive/comparable with Samsung/GF/TSMC's 7nm processes. But all of the Intel 10nm metrics are slightly worse than the 7nm processes its now competing with.
To cherrypick one metric as an example -
* TSMC 10nm sram bitcell size: 0.042 µm²
* Intel 10nm sram bitcell size: 0.031 µm²
* TSMC 7nm sram bitcell size: 0.027 µm²[0] https://www.semiwiki.com/forum/content/7343-leading-edge-log...
Also, one exists and the other is a broken hunk of silicon. That's the most important metric.
They're still ahead, but only until Intel finally ships 10nm.
I'm not sure how much this affects the industry in general, but I bet there are some interesting Intel vs Arm discussions being fueled in Apple's product roadmap meetings.
If we've gone asymptotic, it makes me wonder what other companies will be able to field a chip that's 90% as good as Intel in the next decade...
I don't believe a customer or customers have been announced publicly yet, but the rumour mill seems to think Apple's A12 will be one of the first to ship on TSMC 7nm.
https://www.intel.ca/content/www/ca/en/support/articles/0000...
In particular security issues related to the IME:
Windows 10 spying pales in comparison to the theoretical capabilities of the ME.
There was this brief campaign to try to get AMD to let users control or disable their ME equivalent, but it never went anywhere.
I would kill for a modern computing platform without this crap built in. Soon forced DRM will go through it as well.
It's absolutely shocking to see how much control people (and even companies) have surrendered to Intel.
I'd recommend only buying libre / coreboot compatible hardware (or librem, or system76 systems) until users can gain more control over the Intel ME.
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4190920-intel-intc-q2-2018-... what was actually said is this:
> we continue to make progress on 10-nanometer. Yields are improving consistent with the timeline we shared in April, and we expect systems on shelves for the 2019 holiday season.
This article guesses this to mean Cannon Lake.
In reality, it almost surely means Ice Lake.
https://www.asml.com/press/press-releases/earnings-growth-co...
“Outlook For the third-quarter of 2018, ASML expects net sales between EUR 2.7 billion and EUR 2.8 billion, a gross margin between 47 percent and 48 percent. R&D costs of about EUR 395 million, SG&A costs of about EUR 120 million. Our target effective annualized tax rate is around 14 percent.”
As it is, last time intel jumped ahead it was by repackaging and souping up an a mobile arch that in and of itself was based on the old pentium 3 arch. They can't really mine the parts bin that way this time around either.
So there is a leap coming for Intel as well if they go that route, and after the massive success of Ryzen, they are likely going there. Just easier to scale core counts if you can use smaller dies and just use a lot of them with an interconnect fabric.
1. Relentless process improvement, putting them 1-2 generations ahead of everyone else.
2. Using their monopoly to prevent OEMs from shipping AMD processors.
#1 isn't true anymore.
#2 is almost irrelevant since mobile has taken over and makes the PC revolution look like child's play by comparison.
Intel doesn't have a good graphics story. They sell hot power-hungry chips. They no longer have a process advantage. Their monopoly in x86 is increasingly (but not yet completely) irrelevant.
I'm sure they can ride the x86 profitability horse for at least 5-10 years. What then? Remember: RIM was profitable for several years after the iPhone was released. That didn't save them. Microsoft continued to rake in cash with Windows/Office as iOS/Android/AWS/GC established a new world order that threatened to make them irrelevant.
I don’t know if that still holds true.
Basically the new Microsoft CEO has reinvigorated Microsoft by challenging the old preconceptions and doing what is right in the current environment. I wonder if Intel could find a CEO like that.
I still can not believe that my favorite code editor on Linux is an open source code text-oriented editor from Microsoft (VS Code.)
Don't get me wrong, it seems likely that Intel is considering such options, but they won't be all too amazing for many workloads.
Intel hired Jim Keller that developed AMD's HyperTransport and the Zen's interconnection fabric and was intrumental in the Zen project a few months ago.
Of course, Intel also appears to be forgetting that they have the ultimate advantage in getting to accelerators--they can dump the accelerator in the same socket, Nvidia can't--since they keep trying to compete by using expansion cards despite that being the worst limiting factor for offload.
Intel's current architecture is just small incremental improvements to a 27 year old design. The biggest features they have added are Nehalem's hyperthreadding (which they borrowed from Pentium 4) and Sandybridge's uop cache (loop cache).
All their other performance improvements have come from small micro-optimisations and just chucking transistors at the design. Better branch prediction, better load/store buffers, more load/store buffers, more execution units, bigger reorder buffers, wider instruction decoders, more renaming registers, wider instruction retirement, more unique/specialised instructions and of course, clock speed improvements. But it's still fundamentally the same design which intel could have done back in 1991 if they had the silicon budget.
And this was absolutely the right design decision, everyone else is copying the same design. Apple copied it with their Cyclone/Typhoon/Twister arm CPUs. ARM copied it with their Cortex A57, A72, A73 cpus. AMD copied it with their Zen architecture (after trying out new ideas with Bulldozer and failing). IBM and Sun/Oracle have server class CPUs with more or less the same ideas, but 4 to 8 way "hyperthreadding".
AMD's Zen might pull ahead slightly, but that's only because their design is newer and hopefully free of cobwebs than Intel's design.
But there are still plenty of new CPU design ideas out there, It's quite possible we will see another 50% jump in single threaded performance.
Windows 10 ARM laptops are already shipping.
>In the second-quarter results, Intel said that its 10-nanometer yields are "on track" with systems on the market in the second half of 2019. Krzanich's previous perspective wasn't specific on whether they would arrive in the first half of next year or in the second half. On the conference call with analysts on Thursday, Swan was more specific and said products would be on shelves in time for the holiday season.
>Murthy Renduchintala, group president of the technology, systems architecture and client group, said on the call that the products that will become available in 2019 are client computing products, whereas products for data center use will come "shortly after." The stock fell further after those comments but later rebounded as executives talked about ongoing research and development for next-generation 7-nanometer technology.
This sounds to me like Apple telling Intel. We plan to ship new MacBook, MacBook Pro, iMac and Mac Pro after 2019 Keynote. If you don't deliver we will kick all of Intel's product out of our roadmap. Including the modem business, which although offer no profits value but lots of investor are looking at it.
Until then, the drive toward smaller/faster/whatever-other-superlatives CPU's is just people running on a hamster wheel.
[1] https://foundersfund.com/the-future/#/artificial-intelligenc...
https://www.denverpost.com/2013/06/01/intels-newest-processo...