The Untold Story of Otto Warmbier, American Hostage
gq.com
gq.com
I don't think I'd be strong enough to stay in it after being sentenced to a lifetime of jail in a North Korean prison camp.
The "beatings" and "torture" talk all seems to be false propaganda that wasn't backed up by any evidence with several officials noting no signs of beatings or torture, which is disgusting.
How does one go braindead in a suicide attempt while locked up, without leaving physical evidence of other injuries?
Certainly, none of the other suicide attempts the author listed would qualify.
Later in the article: "Upon learning that this article did not support claims that Otto was beaten, and included the theory that he may have attempted suicide—a possibility that the family, through their lawyer, dismissed categorically—the Warmbiers withdrew a statement that they had previously provided."
The "theory" that he attempted suicide is definitely on shakier ground than the "theories" his injuries were intentionally inflicted on him by the North Koreans.
It is certainly possible that, rather than hanging or strangling himself, he was strangled by someone in the DPRK. The DPRK hasn't done that to any other US prisoner, but it's the DPRK, so who knows?
The problem is that the narrative in the media doesn't have that uncertainty. Rather, it's reported (somewhat widely, though less so after the coroner's report) that there was evidence of physical abuse: scars on his legs, "rearranged" lower teeth, etc.
It is worth adding that the article doesn't say Warmbier tried to kill himself; it just adds that to the stack of plausible causes. It is indeed a very plausible cause.
Is he some kind of ninja?
The doctors would only miss the injuries if they were being told to miss the injuries.
The full year of time to heal only helps the North Koreans cover up injuries they want concealed.
My point is, as it was downthread, that there's a special recent history to reports of abuses by enemies of the US. If the prevailing narrative about Warmbier's treatment by the DPRK is false, and is exploited by the administration as casus belli, that's not hairsplitting.
Like I said earlier: whatever the US accused the Iraqi Baathist regime of doing, their actual abuses were similarly awful. But in the question of how the US relates to other countries, the distinction matters.
Candidly, I think the debate about US/DPRK relations is (on HN) less important than the debate about what it means to report on these stories and to challenge a popular narrative. If I've been triggered to respond by anything in this thread, it's the subtext (in many comments here) that the reporting in this GQ piece is slapdash or done in bad faith.
I didn't say that, if it sounded like I did, sorry!
is exploited by the administration as casus belli
That's a different argument with a higher bar - you can't meet it debating the state of Otto Warmbier's teeth.
it's the subtext (in many comments here) that the reporting in this GQ piece is slapdash or done in bad faith.
For what little it's worth, that gets my goat every single time as well.
Conclusion: either none of the 82 American sailors were white guys, or "beaten and starved for 11 months" doesn't constitute torture.
Ever since the sailors of the U.S.S. Pueblo were beaten in 1968, there have been no clear-cut cases of North Korea physically torturing American prisoners.
If you want to be taken seriously as a journalist, don’t tie the story back to your opinion on Trump. It was an interesting story until he reveals the political motivations behind it. Have the courage to present the facts and let people come to their own conclusions.
His name was Otto Warmbier. I will not forget.
The whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe Otto was physically beaten, maybe he wasn't. Maybe his incarceration conditions were "good" or maybe they weren't. Maybe he did try and commit suicide, maybe he didn't. The author certainly didn't have any more hard, objective facts than anyone before them. He just had an axe to grind.
When I saw the word "hostage" misused in the title, I had the exact same feeling.
>> When Trump learned of Otto's condition, he doubled down on the order for Yun to rush to Pyongyang and bring Otto home. The North Koreans were unilaterally informed that an American plane would soon land in Pyongyang and that United States diplomats and doctors would get off. “The president was very invested in bringing Otto home,” said a State Department official who was involved in the case and who was not authorized to speak on the record. “Listening to him deliberate on this, he sounded to me a lot more like a dad.
"Natural and in good repair" from the American doctor.
The family also refused an autopsy. Weird right?
> Now, that's not to fault the Trump administration for applying maximum pressure on North Korea for an American citizen ending up brain-damaged in its custody: Such behavior warrants punishment. Nor is it to imply that the senior government official lied to The New York Times about the intelligence reports, as some analysts suggested to me; that person seems to have correctly described them. But if the maverick boldness that the administration displayed in rescuing Otto represents the best of Trumpism, what followed once it was clear the reports were flawed encapsulates its troubling disregard for facts when a dubious narrative supports its interests.
You could say that the last sentence is critical but, Trump or no Trump, any government is using sometimes dubious arguments for its own interest. Never let go a crisis go to waste.
He also spends a great deal of time defending the NK hospital procedures and "likely" incarceration facilities.
I mean, personally I'm repulsed by NK. I'm repulsed that Trump treated their leader with dignity. I'm repulsed that this story implies that the north koreans didn't get a fair shake in the press.
And the statement from the coroner saying no evidence of head trauma.
Of course if all of this were lies it would be even worse for an American president to smile and shake hands with those responsible.
The article also sort of glosses over the way NK made up the charge against Otto and other foreigners - the regime abuses world citizens for personal gain.
That sounds like something you believe because you think it should be true :-)
“Listening to [Trump] deliberate on this,” said a State Department official, “he sounded to me a lot more like a dad.”
We (the United States) used Otto Warmbier as a propaganda tool, the media (as in many things to do with Trump) was complicit in this use. While in general, I don't like propaganda, I don't object however, to propaganda in this case - if some good comes of it. It's not the first time we've (as a country) invented a story from near whole cloth to sell something, and it probably wont be the last.
Are there other articles that talk about e.g. the coroner's conclusions? I had not heard those before