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May I add:

>> I can communicate with my fiancee even when she's in another country (international sms = fail).

> It facilitates instant communications. Email across the planet has been around since day one.

Do you even need instant communication in that case? It's not like you're going to have a quick unexpected meetup or some "hey I'm quite busy can you go get the kids?" Not to mention time zone issues.

>> When I'm on the train I can do something meaningful to me.

People didn't die of boredom before. Read a book, magazine, work on something on your laptop if you must. Also people seem to lose the ability to just take a short timeout from everything, just to think about your life for a bit, remember some good old times with friends or family you might have lost, and so on.

>> When I'm not on the train, I can know when it's actually going to arrive so I can do something fun instead of waiting on the platform.

There will we information displayed at the platform and inside the station. Plus announcements on the speaker system, which are faster, more accurate, and I don't have to pull out my phone. Fun fact: at least in Germany, it's not that the train company is obliged to adhere to the prognosed delay. So if your smartphone tells you the train is an hour late and you decide to visit the nearest paintball establishment for an hour you might find yourself missing the train since it only arrived 45 minutes late in the end.

> Do you even need instant communication in that case? It's not like you're going to have a quick unexpected meetup or some "hey I'm quite busy can you go get the kids?" Not to mention time zone issues.

"help, I'm being detained in Paris!" "I was mugged and need a passport!" "My plane was late so I missed my connecting flight, so I am spending another night in Berlin."

etc.

>People didn't die of boredom before. Read a book, magazine, work on something on your laptop if you must. Also people seem to lose the ability to just take a short timeout from everything, just to think about your life for a bit, remember some good old times with friends or family you might have lost, and so on.

I actually agree with you totally here, but a counterpoint would be that I can get mundane stuff done while doing mundane stuff (riding a bus, taxi, etc.) so that when I get home I get more family time instead of "not now, I have to see why Comcast/Verizon/Etc. screwed up our bill again."

> "help, I'm being detained in Paris!" "I was mugged and need a passport!"

And they conveniently let you keep your 1000$ iPhone ;). But these are all situations where I could just make a regular call with my dumb phone as well. Sure roaming costs will kick in, but that's even worse for data. My current provider charges 2€/min for calls outside the EU and 1€ per 50kb (yes that's not a typo). In all seriousness though, sure, there's always situations where having a smartphone is beneficial, I won't deny that. Especially working in tech it might even be that suddenly shit hits the fan at your company and you'd desperately take a wonky ssh connection on a bus ride since every seconds counts.

And if you really have that level of self control, as the OP of this discussion suggests, that you won't distract yourself more than you actually benefit than that's fine. I found myself barely managing to do that and switched to a dumb phone again in 2015ish. On trains and buses I'd mindlessly skim through HN or reddit or random tech sites, I eventually configured my work mail on my phone since sometimes it's more convenient, but then found myself reading mails in the evening during family time etc. Most colleagues confirm that they have similar patterns, but they're almost all single or childless so they probably don't care that much.

I still use it occasionally on the go and frequently at home as a laptop replacement when I'm just about to catch up on the news or post on HN. But I pretty much wiped all apps except the browser. I could not manage to do that when I used it as my main phone for almost 2 years.

You can buy a cheap prepaid sim, and save yourself from data roaming tariffs. And it is the moment when smartphones shine - you'll have the same IDs/handles/usernames in messengers. With a feature phone your identity (your number) will change.

True, unfortunately depending on country it can be quite involved to buy a sim card. Here in Germany a year ago they changed it so it's required the seller validates your identity. Since this is a somewhat involved process pretty much all discount brands chose not to do this in the store but require postal or video ident, the latter being the only viable option if you only stay a week or two, but you need to find some place to make that video call in the first place, have all the documents at hand, hope the call center worker speaks some English which is less likely the cheaper the provider... I observed the same in China. 8 years ago I could walk into some tiny store in an alley, point at a sim card without knowing what I'm doing and after some back and forth with mostly gestures and writing down numbers I was all set. Last year they required my passport and proof that I stay at a hotel that registered me with the local police station. I couldn't possibly manage that without the help from a local.

Since this drifted somewhat away from the original topic let me add that I'm quite curious about KaiOS devices as it seems it might offer a suiting compromise for my needs. It got most popular messenger apps so I could take advantage of improved connectivity with people but the experience is still limited enough to prevent information overload and playing around with it too much. The selection of devices is just too limited at the moment.

>millions of man years wasted streaming mind numbing video.

..millions of man years wasted waiting.

>zoning out of the real world people around you to doodle on your phone that’s sad.

..humoring pointless gossip so people will like you, that's sad.

My point is that these seem very subjective and judgmental.

I mean there were books before there were phones. The point is that phones have added little value.

There were iPods before there were smartphones, and that completely revolutionised my listening habits. I don't stream music or listen to podcasts so that need was already a solved problem for me.

Except. Now I only carry one device. vOv

> The point is that phones have added little value.

... to you.

My phone doesn't always have to be solving a problem or completing a task. The other day I was waiting for something and happened to look up the weather. I ended up going down a rabbit hole and re-discovering https://earth.nullschool.net - it was fascinating! It enriched my life, to no particular end. That sort of stuff happens all the time and immensely valuable to me.

Which is why using these ‘arguments’ makes you appear like an old fart. Get off my lawn! Kids these days!

"waiting" isn't an actual action. You either read something, or think, or look around while thinking, and so on, but nobody just "waits". Being aware is an action. Thinking is an action. If people around you gossip, tell them that gossip is lame and shift the conversation.

And what does it even mean to say something is subjective? Contrary to what? And what does judgemental mean? That you can be whatever you want, and think of yourself however you want, but others may not see you how they see you? What's wrong with judgement?

>"waiting" isn't an actual action.

semantics. you feel like you can only be critical of action, while inaction gets a pass? 'thinking' quietly is not inherently more valuable than being entertained. And while we are at it, nobody is just 'entertained' we learn, process, and yes 'think' at the same time

>to say something is subjective

In this context subjective means only applies to you Contrary to something that is a universal truth, something koolba seemed to be claiming.

>What's wrong with judgement[al]?

Its a weak argument, to say someone has 'failed' by your standards is to say they have failed by an arbitrary measure that may not have anything to do with their goals.

> Email across the planet has been around since day one.

It has been present around the globe for ages, if you could find an internet cafe on holiday. Reading email on your phone also needs a smartphone.

> Mass transit has had posted schedules for many years. It is nice to see an updated one with up to the minute tracking but it wasn’t that inconvenient either.

You must be one of the blessed multitudes that live in a country with a public transport system that works well. If you have frequent, long-term delays it is fairly essential for your sanity to be able to know which routes are not currently completely fucked.

>>Reading email on your phone also needs a smartphone.

Nokia 6310 could both read and send emails, and I'm sure the functionality arrived slightly earlier too.

>>second point

I mean, if I'm in some 3rd world country without a reliable public transport system, then I'm not sure how internet access or a smartphone for that matter helps at all. In my experience in those places the bus/train just turns up when it does, no website would help you here.

I didn't know a 6310 could read and send email, thank you. I stopped having Nokia phones after the 3310i (which I did love dearly).

There are numerous first world countries that have unreliable public transport. This is the US and also in the EU, I can't imagine you've never encountered what I mean unless you don't travel very much (there is nothing wrong with that, but then why do you discuss it like this). Sure in the situations that you talk about a smartphone would not matter, but in the ones I talk about (and that I actually meant originally) a smartphone will tell you why there is a delay (suddenly, generally) and what you can do to mitigate it. Something no PA system will tell you with any amount of reliability.

I live in EU, but in not-so-reliable public transit country.

Outside of major towns, smart phone won't help you much to get most accurate time table. Paper timetable in the station is the only source of true information. You may find multiple contradicting timetables on the web and just hope they haven't been changed since then. Nobody cares to post emergency updates on the web. Sticker in the station it is. GPS live tracking is non existent.

We do have live tracking for public transit in 2 (maybe 3?) major towns. But that came before the era of smartphones - it was displayed in displays in stops. It's kinda cool to see your bus stuck in traffic one stop from you :)

Which country is that? Just out of curiosity (fellow European).

Lithuania. Our beloved Trafi does wonders. But it doesn't cover obscure little towns :(

Oh ok, but good to know :) I always wanted to visit the baltic countries once, and I usually travel around with public transport, so I'd have to consider that when planning I guess.

Well, public transit between major cities and in/out of country is OK. Online timetables are reliable enough, you can get tickets online etc.. No live GPS tracking though :) But tourist attractions in smaller towns or, worst of all, in between them is kinda.. tricky. One of the reasons why hitch hiking is not dead.

A flip-phone can be a smart phone.

Blackberries were smartphones. They had enumerable apps shoved into that tiny display, and keyboard model, but they still looked like flip-phones and lacked touch displays.

To me, the 'flip' is just a mechanical implementation detail. The real divide is smart phones versus dumb phones.

Or even between phones with app stores / web browsers / sideloading, and those without.

A phone that comes with its own apps (like old flip-phones) but doesn’t offer any other extensibility, usually only has apps written by the manufacturer to support standard protocols like email and SMS, and no support for any company’s walled-garden social superstimulus factory. Even WAP was okay, since WAP only worked to deliver information, not interactive “experiences.”

(Admittedly, one of those apps could have been an IRC client, which would have been quite immersing. Luckily we never saw such from the manufacturers—they left that sort of thing to the J2ME sideloading ecosystem.)

I can't remember the exact app name, it's been a few years, but CMU had an app for Pittsburgh Port Authority buses. They were almost always off the posted schedule. The app used people already on the bus and some other factors to determine location and give a far more accurate estimate. It saved me numerous times from missing a bus/thinking I missed a bus that ran only once an hour (54). From my experience, smart phones and technology certainly do help with unreliable public transit.

>I mean, if I'm in some 3rd world country without a reliable public transport system, then I'm not sure how internet access or a smartphone for that matter helps at all. In my experience in those places the bus/train just turns up when it does, no website would help you here.

I'm in Canada, my internet on my phone is more than good enough, yet it's not rare to see bus 10 minutes late and it happens often to need a second bus that may be 10 minutes after the first one. Traffic is not exclusive to third world country. Our bus have real time tracking so I can know 10 minutes earlier if taking another route is the right thing to do.

> I mean, if I'm in some 3rd world country without a reliable public transport system

Do you honestly think it's a binary choice? Either the public transport system is reliable, or it's a 3rd world country? This seems disingenuous.

Just to take an example: Southern Rail in the UK. It's notoriously unreliable, and journeys get cancelled or delayed all the time for various reasons, including strikes, weather, staff shortages and leaves on the tracks. I've saved countless hours from going to waste by keeping up to date on the schedule in real time. For this I need a smart phone. Is the UK a 3rd world country?

You have some valid points but it's like you feel compelled to reject all possible benefits put forward by OP. On this one you are objectively wrong.

>It has been present around the globe for ages, if you could find an internet cafe on holiday. Reading email on your phone also needs a smartphone.

Oh Simulation Creator, shudder I just remembered when Sears installed an internet cafe haha.

If my train has a delay or doesn't run at all, I need to know a detour quickly. Sometimes you need to decide within the minute to take another line. Otherwise I have to wait 30 minutes for the next train, if that one even runs.

And I need to inform the person that I'm meeting with that I will arrive later (if I didn't have slack in my transit time).

Smartphones make it easier to optimize your transit lines on the fly, sure (yet I'll note the practice existed before smartphones). But there are different philosophies to traveling: some leave at the last possible minutes and ponder the optimal route choice while running to the bus stop. Others aim to be fifteen minutes early, stroll leisurely, watch the scenery and get lost in their thoughts. I suspect someone who likes a dumbphone to be the latter type.

Being a different type may change the frequency of each situation, but stuff happens so anytime can be in these situations.

Really having a smartphone does not mean you need to use it for much. IMO, the jump to cellphone vs not having one is a bigger downside as someone can call ar any time interrupting your thoughts. But even you can just turn them off, while still benefiting in an emergency.

It's also nice sitting in silence with only my thoughts, watching the world go by.

What do you mean by "peak photo"?

They mean the Photomeggadon. The Photocalypse. The Big Kodak Moment.

IMNSHO, the parent is simply behaving reactively to the threat of new paradigms.

Email does not convey the emotion of a phone call, let alone a video call.

Easy access to information fosters discussion - by ending pointless, heated debates over nothing.

Only teenagers, and I now presume, older people, fuddle with their phones instead of talking to the person in front of them.

As a Gen Z-er, email for me is an opportunity to write long letters, mulling over every word to convey the emotion just right. However, if I am with someone at the present moment, all of my attention is on him/her.

>Photomeggadon

One hit on google and that's you! Nice!

That's just because Google doesn't index Library of Babel! https://libraryofbabel.info/bookmark.cgi?fsgju,xzpeiboivi.ul...

Emails are a replacement for letter writing, not a replacement for phone calls.

When they seemingly replace a phone call, its usually because the institution would have liked to use only letter writing but couldn't for some non-technical reason.

Like a company processing refunds and cancelations by phone in order to have the opportunity to convince clients not to cancel (i.e. non-technical reason), now uses email or chat systems to accomplish the same thing.

> Email does not convey the emotion of a phone call, let alone a video call.

Certainly does not, and it's a nice bonus, but when on earth do people use video calls? Since they are even better at conveying emotions, by your logic everybody carrying a smartphone should be making video calls at all times. But it's the contrary, people even prefer texting on Whatsapp over phone calls or even voice messages.

> Easy access to information fosters discussion - by ending pointless, heated debates over nothing.

They are the opposite of pointless. I feel the current/younger generation has completely lost the ability to have civilized, structured debates. If you can't solve a disagreement by a google search people freak out pretty quickly. And then we need safe spaces left and right and everybody is a victim and it's all society's fault. Those pointless debates over trifles serve a purpose, like kitten playfully fighting all day.

> Only teenagers, and I now presume, older people, fuddle with their phones instead of talking to the person in front of them.

Mostly teenagers yes, but them being the next generation of adults I doubt they'll just stop once they're into their twens. It'll just become the norm.

> when on earth do people use video calls?

I actually see people using facetime in public all the time -- I think its one of those things if you aren't looking for it you won't notice. I've actually used google hangouts on my phone a few times -- recently I was in the airport w/o my computer on my Dad's birthday so we did a video call and other scenarios like that one. Also, I lived abroad for a few years and I used video chat extensively with my parents and other friends back in the states. (TBF though a majority of the time it was on my laptop -- but sometimes I did use my phone!)

> Mostly teenagers yes, but them being the next generation of adults I doubt they'll just stop once they're into their twens. It'll just become the norm.

That one is potentially true although I'll say based off of our interns they seem to be pretty good about not being on their phones all the time when the situation calls for it. I think like most things its super individual because of my coworkers the person who is on their phone the most is actually a middle aged guy.

You must not live in a particularly populous place, if you are not seeing people making personal video calls as they walk down the street/take the bus/sit on a park bench every time you leave the house - on the way, incidentally, to my morning video conference, that people frequently join by phone from wherever they are.

Email does not convey the emotion of a phone call, let alone a video call.

I'd argue that email (and video calls, etc) have killed our ability to convey emotion via written word. What used to take time and thought has been reduced to quick blurbs given with little effort.

Get off my lawn! <shakes cane>

Being in a very long distance relationship for a few years now I can be confident in saying that email would not be a great replacement. If you haven’t been in the situation it’s easy to say the opposite but being able to talk in real time is incredibly helpful in making the distance disappear.

FaceTime / video calls always available at your fingertips while you are waiting somewhere is also something I wouldn’t want to miss.

My 23 year old girlfriend lives in Japan, she is not reading hackernews. If I told her that we can't talk on whatsapp or LINE anymore because I want to get a flip phone because 'the good old day', and we need to switch to email, I don't think she would be very enthusiastic about the next 2.5 months I am away.

You can use LINE in your desktop without a smartphone though

I agree about WhatsApp issue.

i feel like you missed the major point there. in every other point you talked about, you actually mention the major advantage of smartphones which is convenience. everything smartphones can do was already being done, and of course communication has been around since "day one".

smartphones enable you to channel a lot of your time to other things instead of "having to download podcasts in advance" or "check posted transit schedules".

With you on most points. As someone who has gone back to a dumb phone, the only thing I really miss is having a high quality camera with me.

You might not be a Luddite, but you are being very dismissive. The convenience and opportunity aspects of having an always connected computer in your pocket might not appeal to you, but I can assure you that it's a huge deal for the rest of us.

You counterpoints all seem to distill down to some variation of being opposed to people having options or embracing convenience.