Can anybody comment on the love for Clang vs. the declining importance of GCC? As it seems to me:
GCC supports more platforms GCC creates more performant code
Is it a license thing or a technical driven issue?
GCC supports more platforms GCC creates more performant code
Is it a license thing or a technical driven issue?
LLVM-IR has enabled this nice separation between the language front-end and the compilation back-end. GCC could have done that too: they didn't for political reasons. Why? Someone could have used GCC's C++ front-end for its proprietary compilation pipeline. Today this is nearly impossible to change in GCC.
There are also some other advantages for LLVM I like: it supports multiple architectures in a single binary. With GCC I need to compile the compiler either for x64 or arm but not both. GCC is still great but it's not surprising that LLVM is so successful.
You're implying that GCC doesn't have a separation between language front-end and compilation back-end, but that's not true.
GCC has a consistent internal representation known as GENERIC where the front-ends and back-ends meet just like LLVM.
And there's three separate forms of GIMPLE while you're at it.
It's way easier to work with LLVM IR.
This missing separation is even a problem for writing tests in GCC: Often it would be quite easy to write a small program in GIMPLE-IR (or RTL) and test your optimization pass against it. But you can't write GIMPLE-IR (it needs to go through GENERIC all the time), so you need to write a C file that is then translated into the IR you want to test again. This is sometimes not so easy with all that different optimization passes that run before your pass and hopefully that doesn't change in the future either.... There was some work on this (I don't know about the current status) but almost all of GCC's tests are still integration tests against C files (I think they addressed this by extending the C-front end to be able to parse functions marked with __gimple as Gimple-IR). Also GIMPLE didn't start as a separate IR. It started as a more restricted tree-structure. Even today operands are still tree's and optimization passes are called tree-<something>.c.
With LLVM I can write a toy compiler that outputs LLVM IR with printf and then just pipe it into llc to compile it. That's pretty cool. I didn't want to imply that GCC has NO separation between IRs but the whole story is much messier compared to LLVM. Which is actually fine, LLVM is much younger than GCC and could learn a lot from it. And GCC is still pretty great in the use cases it was intended for.
https://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/GimpleFrontEnd
I'm not sure how complete and usable it is though.
GCC has caught up a lot with clang in the last few years, from the quality of error messages, to standard compliance, compilation times, tooling, sanitizers, etc.
IME GCC tends to produce faster code in practice, even if clang is often able to out-smart GCC in many areas (e.g., IIRC heap elision was first introduced in clang). GCC has a huge amount of inertia behind it, it's still the only compiler officially supported for compiling the Linux kernel, and, as long as the GCC developers don't stop improving it, it will be difficult for clang to take its role as "default" compiler, at least in Linux environments.
I use them both daily and I am really happy that we have the possibility of freely choosing between two such amazing projects. It would be a step backwards if one of them ended up fading away.
My own experience with a substantial codebase (1+ million lines of code) is MSVC uses the least amount of RAM, followed by clang and then GCC. For performance in terms of compiling/linking it's GCC/clang tied and then MSVC from fastest to slowest.
Even though I still use GCC to build by C code I'm very happy that LLVM exists, it brought some new blood and much needed competition to the FLOSS compiler scene. It also gave a better architecture to build on if you want to create a new language, it's great that a language like Rust for instance can generate such good machine code by building on top of the LLVM backend. In the GCC-only days the easiest way to create a new compiled language was to emit C as an intermediary target...
It has been the default compiler in base on FreeBSD since version 10, and FreeBSD is now built with it. There was also a push back around 2014 or so to get much of the ports tree built with it, too.
DragonFly BSD has been buildable with clang since around 2014, albeit using clang from packages/ports. In 2017 (release 50) the DragonFly people started work on pulling it into base.
OpenBSD switched building on x86/amd64 to clang in 2017 and building on armv7 to clang in 2018.
NetBSD has included clang in base but as far as I know does not (yet) build with it by default on any architecture.
I don't think the performance difference between them is significant, but Clang is much nicer if you want to use it as a library, add a new backend, etc. Basically if you want to do anything other than run it from the command line.
Oh also, Clang does cross-compilation in a not totally insane way.
I wouldn't be surprised if GCC is abandoned eventually, but it will be at least 10 years.
Let's hope not. The healthy competition between the two projects has been a huge boon for the OSS community.
It will not be, because LLVM does not align with the goals of the FSF and GNU projects. A free compiler under a free license is a pretty central project for them. (Besides that, making predictions 10 years out into the future of software seems meaningless. Saying "this thing might still be around in like 2 decades, or not" is... not particularly noteworthy, nor damning)
Plus, I simply see no reason to believe this, even aside from that. If anything, GCC development has gotten far more active and improved greatly in the past few years, with consistently high quality releases, each bringing in major features, and adopting work from Clang, and bringing in their own unique work. It would seem each of these projects has livened up quite a lot over time and are offering higher quality than they ever have before.
What reason do you have to believe it will be completely abandoned? Just because there's an alternative available? That never happened with Linux, either...
Given the amount of BSD deployments, I bet if Linux never happened, I would still be using Solaris, Aix, HP-UX, ..., as I don't imagine UNIX vendors would have been so generous with the *BSDs.
Meanwhile - at least for a short period - gcc was on this optimization fad where they'd just take any occurrence of UB as a reason to silently eliminate chunks of code and render the whole program useless in some cases. With 4.8 they even broke SPEC 2006. The GCC folks always argued that doing so is legal by the standard, but eventually there was enough backlash that the worst instances of such aggressive optimizations were removed.
Incidentally, ifort turns on (or used to) generally-invalid optimizations without warning, which GCC doesn't, and the first question to ask about user complaints of SEGVs on the systems I support is "ifort?" if only because of an optimzation which is valid but hits typical resource limits.
I absolutely agree. I actually frequently compile with both GCC and clang as they tend to find different issues at times. Same goes for valgrind and address sanitizer.
> but I don't want the noise from things like intentionally elided code from compile-time constants
Not that I'm in any way familiar with GCC internals, but shouldn't it be possible to only print warnings for problematic cases, and not things like constant folding, unreachable code, redundant range checks etc.
> On my first workhorse systems, reading past the end of an array, as in the SPEC case, gave a hardware error if you didn't disable that.
That sounds like a better outcome than a program that runs but computes something entirely different because of a missing loop. Depending on the application, that could be a subtle bug that can go undetected for a while. Yes, the same could be true for just generating the according unsafe stream of instructions (depending on platform, mempry layout, moon phase), but I'm not even suggesting the compiler should just generate that broken code. In the past compilers did, because they weren't that elaborate yet in general. What I can't wrap my head around is this: Any such "optimization" basically breaks the program already at compile time, guaranteed. When can this possibly ever be wanted? I'm not saying it's worse than just emitting code that might or might not crash the program because it reads or writes past the end of an array. But it's not better either because the compiler already has the knowledge that your code sucks, and the GCC devs decided that instead of aborting compilation (my preference, obviously with override switch) or printing a warning (by default), they'll just render the program useless in a different way. I feel like it's just not a good choice how to handle that situation.
Or maybe look at it this way: in the past, code like the SPEC example almost always compiled to something that still worked as intended. This isn't great and shouldn't be encouraged but that's just how it was. Now with the new compiler and the same compile flags suddenly everything compiles and runs seemingly fine but produces the wrong result. And the compiler perfectly knew this would happen.
As for ifort, I've never even used it, but it sounds rather user hostile.
In general, I still like and use GCC. I think it's good they revised some of those more aggressive optimizations, and I really like how they also improved the readability of the compiler warnings a lot, following clang.
- compiles faster
- better error messages
- tooling (clangformat) is great
On the other hand, the effort of learning clang options, error messages and paths in order to have two compilers available can wait indefinitely until I really need a second opinion about some compilation error; so far it hasn't happened.
$ bazel build --compiler=my_favorite_compiler //my/fine:program
https://github.com/bazelbuild/bazel/blob/master/tools/cpp/CR...
Build C++
To build C++ targets, you need:
•The Visual C++ compiler.
Whether the developers gave up on the Mingw64 GCC and Clang toolchains or it's a documentation mistake, this statement places Bazel support for Windows in the "don't touch with a 10' pole" category.
But my point was that adopting Bazel is obviously far more complex than adapting existing build scripts and build script generators for Make, Cmake, Ninja etc to use Clang.
Also it’s trivial to change the dev compiler when debugging something that might be a compiler error (it never is though).
So in terms of mindshare among people who are doing compilers, it's kind of a no-brainer.
(In case it is not clear, just to be explicit: LLVM corresponds to only the backend part of GCC. Clang+LLVM correspond to the whole GCC C++ compiler.)
It's sad, really — look how old the bash & emacs are in macOS these days. And I really don't think that copyleft would hurt Apple: what compiler technology do they want to keep proprietary?
They wanted to do things like take chains of filters in Core Image and JIT compile them into a single optimized filter that could target the CPU or the specific GPU in that Mac. They wanted to use the compiler's parser as a library in Xcode to handle things like syntax highlighting.
Gcc could not do these things as it was at the time. The different parts were tightly coupled in ways to make it hard to separate things out. People had proposed making it more modular but the gcc devs rejected them, with RMS making it clear that the design was the way it was in order to make it harder for proprietary programs to have ways to use gcc's parts.
Apple could have forked gcc and changed it to be more modular, but that would have required a lot of changes and a lot of work, and since it would not be accepted upstream they would probably have to do a lot of work every time there was a significant gcc update.
It made much more sense in every way for them to go with clang and LLVM, because those were designed to allow the kind of modular, library use that Apple wanted.
The reaosn why I vastly prefer clang is for three main reasons.
Firstly, clang and llvm are written in c++ so it's much easier for me to work with. Secondly, it has proper documentation on how to, for example, add new optimization passes or adding a new instruction. This includes tons of talks and presentations on doing this live. Thirdly, the tooling for it is great, such as clangd, llc, lld, clanggtidy, etc.
Gcc seems to have none of this. Oh, and almost forgot, most importantly llvm + clang is actually open source (more open) via a MIT license instead of gpl.
Why is the implementation language important to you as a user?
To make this a multi-use comment, I'll also reply to GP and say that in every single case where I've benchmarked time sensitive code, GCC has generated faster, tighter code. I still primarily use clang for other reasons, but saying that GCC is more performant seems to be entirely valid.
How is a license that allows someone or some corporation to take some code, add to it, and make those additions proprietary "more open" than a license that specifically disallows that type of scenario? The GPL ensures that derived code stays open while MIT does not. In my eyes, that's "actually open source". I can see the argument that licenses like MIT allow consumers of some piece of code more freedom to do as they please, but that hardly makes it more open.
This gets argued all the time. What the corporation did was freedom for them not the code. GPL protects the code, MIT/BSD protects the people. Depending on your definition of "freedom" you will prefer one over the other.
Here's the obligatory retort that open source != free software: GPL (et al) is about guaranteeing end users' freedom to tinker, as opposed to MIT (et al), which are about allowing developers to use someone else's work in their product without restrictions. GPL enforces a share-and-share-alike ethos, while MIT asserts do-what-thou-wilt. They're not the same end goals.
Being allowed to do more things isn't necessarily freedom. For example, is a society where I can enslave people a freer society? I don't think so.
The GPL protects the freedom of software /users/. I the same way that prohibiting slavery protects potential slaves, at the expense of limiting the actions of slavers.
For example, when OS X used GCC all OS X users could get the full and exact source of the compiler their system used. Now that OS X uses LLVM that isn't the case. You can get something close but Apple includes proprietary changes.
It's tiresome to remind people to please remember, GPL tries to ensure user freedoms that might not align with what developers would want, this does not make it less free, it makes it less free for developers.