Tattoo Ink Nanoparticles Persist in Lymph Nodes (2017) | Hacker News Reader

Tattoo Ink Nanoparticles Persist in Lymph Nodes (2017)

the-scientist.com

144 pointsDoreenMichele69 comments

As a pathologist who sees tattoo ink in lymph nodes routinely (along with other pigments), it's slightly shocking to me that this got reported as a finding.

There is, however, an interesting suggestion of correlation between certain red pigments, particularly from tattoos made in Asia it seems, that stimulate the immune system to mount a severe epidermolytic reaction. And it can be a delayed reaction. We had one where the dermatologists brought in pictures. It looked like the entire tattoo was being cut out with a cookie cutter, just totally separated from the surrounding skin. Horrible.

“We already knew that pigments from tattoos would travel to the lymph nodes because of visual evidence: the lymph nodes become tinted with the colour of the tattoo. It is the response of the body to clean the site,” study coauthor Bernhard Hesse, a visiting scientist at the European Synchrotron Radiation Facility (ESRF) in Grenoble, France, says in a press release. “What we didn’t know is that they do it in a nano form, which implies that they may not have the same behaviour as the particles at a micro level. And that is the problem: we don’t know how nanoparticles react.”

From the actual report: “The average particle size of TiO2 in both skin and lymph nodes was 180 nm with a standard deviation of 23 nm and a standard error of 7 nm.”

What other pigments show up in lymph nodes? Hair dyes?

This is pretty much expected. The very mechanism of tattoos is that ink particles deposited in the skin are taken up by phagocytes. One of the jobs of phagocytes is to present ingested material to lymphocytes in lymph nodes. Makes sense that we may see ink particles in lymph nodes.

This is also the method used for tattoo removal. Normally the ink particles (or most of them) are too large to be removed by the body. Tattoo removal lasers simply break down the ink pigments into smaller particles, which the body can remove.

Didn't know that, thanks!

Finding traces of tattoo ink in lymph nodes, means nothing other than the fact that there are traces of tattoo ink in lymph nodes.

If there were actual lymph-related problems associated with tattoos, like certain illnesses that are disproportionately represented amongst tatooed individuals, you'd think that studies would discover it...

That’s a bit glib, and ignores the possibility that now it’s known those nanoparticles travel in lymph, they could be found elsewhere. In the case of something like TiO2, I’d be pretty concerned if nanoparticles where found in my lymph nodes or elsewhere. There is also evidence of chronic enlargement of the nodes as a result, and persistent hypertrophy or inflammation are known risk factors for cancer. Simply dismissing any risk until large longitudinal studies show a correlation in key populations is probably unwise.

It’s been known for a while that tattoos are a possible vector for some infectious diseases, typically when unsanitary methods are employed. The focus of disease and tattoos has generally been around Hep C, and you might be overestimating the degree of scholarly interest in looking beyond that. Nanoparticles infiltration is a relatively new concept, and none that I’ve ever seen leads me to the conclusion that the results are likely to be positive, but it’s early days yet. TiO2 has been tentatively linked to tumors in rats, but it’s only been tested through the inhalation route. Science takes time, and a rational person might wait and see rather than say “fuck it, until you prove it I’m tatting up!”

So sure, get a tattoo, but realize that you’re having an unregulated ink shot into your dermis, and elements of that ink can infiltrate systemically. That would worry me, but then, I wouldn’t get a tattoo.

Without being glib, as well, there are tens of things I do everyday that have a high probability of depositing foreign nanoparticles in my lymph nodes: driving a car, standing next to a smoker, eating food from a production farm, being exposed to paint fumes, etc.

Tattoos may end up being a problem, and more power to those who have no interest or who decide to abstain because of possible issues, but let’s keep this in perspective.

so 10,000 years from now they can look at all these nano particles in our bodies as artefacts of our civilization, like we look back at Otzi the Iceman's stomach contents.... ??

10k years from now they'll probably pull up social media archives to know everything they want to know :p

There are no archives of walled gardens.

Except when we occasionally download our personal archives.

And then what?

And we will seem happier, fitter, more attractive, better traveled, more socially connected, and more politically engaged than we ever were.

"Seem"

I guess Twitter's archive didn't make it. :P The dim yet accurate view of humanity it provides would surely give pause to deep future archaeologists.

Seeing as Ötzi is covered in tattoos, potentially Ötzi’s lymph nodes are interesting too.

That there's other things is meaningless when it comes to the potential dangers of any one of these cases (ie not just tattoos).

It's a matter of the specifics of each case. How much of the substances tends to end up there for each kind of case, what is the nature of those substances, etc.

Of course. Whataboutism is easy to promote.

Understanding the risk is the important part. Personally, I’ll take my chances and roll the proverbial dice with tattoo ink.

Could you please elaborate on how driving a car deposits nanoparticles?

Internal combustion engines produce exhaust fumes. Polycyclic hydrocarbons would be a good place to start.

Here’s an older study: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S135223100...

Just because are lots of common things that deposit nanoparticles in my lymph nodes doesn't mean I should give up on the exposure I can control.

I never suggested you should. My personal decision is to consider tattoo ink the lesser of the evils I chose to be concerned with.

You may have a different opinion and make different choices based on your personal risk rubric.

Sounds to me like you’d rather get a tattoo than drive a car...

For the record, I don't have any tattoos and don't plan on getting any. I just thought the article was a bit low on details and a bit on the side of "potential risk" scaremongering.

I don't think your level of dismissiveness is appropriate considering the seriousness of the condition in at least one case I've read about previously:

https://www.sciencealert.com/tattoo-mimics-cancer-of-the-lym...

lymphadenopathy is caused by a variety of conditions, including but not limited to infections, autoimmune diseases, and cancers. To your point, the article you linked only states that "she'd noticed lumps in both her armpits two weeks prior - a common symptom of lymphoma."

Granulomatous change in the lymph node (when phagocytes eat up the pigment from the tattoo) is not "serious" per say, especially considering that in this case the patient had no other associated symptoms.

If you can read the original case report (paywall) that ScienceAlert linked: http://annals.org/aim/article-abstract/2656481/tattoo-pigmen..., you will find that the major point of the article was that getting a good history from a patient with tattoos is important so that you don't misdiagnose them with lymphoma if they do not actually have it.

Glad they only looked for Titanium Dioxide, as present in everything and anything except for a lot of the more common tattoo inks. Titanium Dioxide is effectively 'white paint' and mixed in with ink as well as to do highlights in white.

A lot of tattoo ink is 'burnt animal bones' and mostly harmless. However, a surprisingly large amount of people in the trade are vegan and therefore only use the 'vegan friendly' ink. So that means nickel shoved into the skin instead of dead animal ash.

Colours, particularly bright colours, do need heavy metals such as cadmium for yellow, cobalt for blue and, depending on who is doing the fearmongering, lead, arsenic, everything up to depleted uranium.

One might imagine that in this age where we have brightly coloured plastics made from petroleum products and friendly to everything from kids to dishwashers that it would be possible to get vegan friendly ink that was not made from toxic heavy metals. But it is not like that at all, to get good colours you do need lots of heavy metals.

Tattoos are far from permanent, yellows will fade to be barely visible within five years even if looked after with sun cream and covered 99% of the time. I would be very interested to see how these inks make it from the skin and on towards the liver over time. I know some people say they are allergic to Titanium Dioxide but that has to be one of the more inert of the inks, what happens to the lead is more interesting.

There could be a flip side though. Some people don't get enough zinc. So what if you could have a 'slow release mechanism' tattoo that gave you the zinc the doctor said you needed?

We aren't made of polymers.

Chemicals that don't separate from the plastic doesn't mean the chemicals used to make and color plastic are safe to stick directly into your body.

Re. plastics specifically, the synthesis of these almost universally uses compounds of at least some toxicity. It's not easy to set up, control and maintain a reactor such that you get a very clean product containing very little of the original compounds. For durability, that doesn't really matter. But when you don't want plastics to contaminate things, then you really need high quality plastics.

That's why e.g. kids toys and most of the plastic things you touch or put your food in/on are made from the cheapest plastics someone was able to make (because we're cheap fucks), while industrial piping, fittings etc. (which are quite common in many industries, because many substances are incompatible with steel piping, and stainless steel piping is even more expensive, and still incompatible with many substances) are still largely made in first-world countries and cost approx 2-10 times more per kg than cheap plastics. The former has all sorts of chemical dirt in it, while the latter only requires a few purging passes at most to not contaminate your product.

“No one checks the chemical composition of the colours, but our study shows that maybe they should.”

Not exactly true. Part of the process of choosing the right tattoo artist is making sure they use a quality ink, since this may significantly affect the final work. I agree most people don't really do it, and fewer care about the actual contents of the ink, but good tattoo artists will properly talk to customers about it, as to set the right expectations for colors that fade out quickly such as white or yellow, or change tone over time like old black ink.

Looks like TiO2 is going to get a lot more focus in the decades ahead:

"Possible link found between diabetes and common white pigment"

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180620125907.h...

Yes, titanium dioxide is in everything, and where you see it on a label it is almost always nanoparticles. And nanoparticles inside your body are no bueno

Well, TiO2 is fully oxidized. It's a very stable substance that's inert in most circumstances. Recent changes in work-safety regarding TiO2 pigment has to do with dust (I think it shouldn't surprise anyone that any kind of dust is no good for you), not that they think TiO2 is actually toxic.

Similarly I think negative effects caused by very small particulates probably have less to do with the composition of the particle itself and more to do with it being around.

If it wasn't clear, I wasn't claiming that titanium dioxide would chemically combine with something in your body as chlorine gas or something would.

There are many ways things can be toxic, and many of them involve pretty mundane processes like heavy metal bioaccumulation, or nanoparticles like asbestos, or other dust, or yes, titanium dioxide, getting stuck in hard-to-clean (from the body's point of view) nooks and crannies of your body.

And it doesn't take much to be toxic: a single exposure to asbestos. Or the talcum powder fiasco.

Not all dust is created equal, and it's the size and shape of the dust that matters. Titanium dioxide nanoparticles have been a known danger (to the industry, occupational hazard etc) for a long time.

whew thank god i decided not to get a tattoo....was about to too.

You should almost never make a decision that affects the rest of your life. If you say "marriage", well, NOT getting married to that person might affect the rest of your life more than marrying them ( regret is bigger than marriage ). Therefore marriage would affect the rest of your life less than not marrying them.

Are there any decisions that affect the rest of your life ( by consequence ) that are advisable? Even going into the military only affects 4 years, but tattoos are longer ( assuming you don't remove ).

Kids too, they should only be had if regret would outweigh the kid, in terms of life change.

How many people regret NOT getting a tattoo, vs the many that regret tattoos? If you regret not having a tattoo, you can always get the tat later, but not the other way around.

Every single decision anyone ever makes affects the rest of their lives no matter what.

You can make the same argument you’re making about marriage about any other decision. NOT getting that tattoo affects your life exactly the same amount as getting it and vice versa, same with everything.

No, not the same amount, from a reasonable baseline, from expectations. If you expect a pretty good life, then getting a face tattoo will deviate from those expectations, and you will perceive much affect. NOT getting a face tattoo will not affect, IE, not CHANGE, not DEVIATE from the trajectory of your life.

(It should probably be noted that affect is the root of affection, and an emotional term, especially when considering life change [ love is eternal ~ affect ~ affection ])

In the same sense, marrying someone should be done to preserve trajectory, to solidify path, not to affect a life. Don't get married to change your life; don't get married to "fix" things ( unless you mean fix in place, affix ). IE, if you expect someone in your life, and losing them would be a bigger change than marrying them, then marry them. It is the lesser noticed change.

If you don't follow my logic(and some folly), then you are fallible, not affable.

You could die in the military or develop PTSD. Nobody is going to see a tattoo on your back or your ass if you don't want them too. So it depends on a number of factors and people are free to make that choice for themselves.

Tattoos provide a useful function

That if present, they indicate that the wearer is a member of the working class.

Although comical, this is definitely false now, right?

Yup, it is in fact false.

Skip to page 54 of this book (PDF) for a light read:

http://cnqzu.com/library/Philosophy/neoreaction/_extra%20aut...

> THE CAUSE OF CRIMINALITY among the white population of England is perfectly obvious to any reasonably observant person, though criminologists have yet to notice it. This cause is the tattooing of the skin.

> A slow-acting virus, like that of scrapie in sheep, is introduced into the human body via the tattooing needle and makes its way to the brain, where within a few years it causes the afflicted to steal cars, burgle houses, and assault people. I first formulated my viral theory of criminality when I noticed that at least nine of ten white English prisoners are tattooed, more than three or four times the proportion in the general population. The statistical association of crime with tattooing is stronger, I feel certain, than between crime and any other single factor, with the possible exception of smoking.

Thank you for this.

The guy is a British psychiatrist.

A lot of people consider the effects of lead from leaded gas to have been a major factor driving criminality over decades, so it seems odd for someone to not even be aware of that enough to specifically address it.

The good doctor was spoofing that.

Is it widely supposed criminal tendencies cause lead ingestion, then?

It's been at least three years since I've logged in, but I just did so to downvote your incredibly ignorant comment. Congrats.

How does downvoting work? I assume only some or really old accounts can do it?

It's been a while but last time I checked it was just a certain karma threshold. The idea was to prevent newly registered accounts from spamming downvotes.

But again, haven't actively participated in HN for a while. Things could be different now.

above 500 points or something, I believe

It's rude, not ignorant. The lower class gets the vast majority of tattoos.

That’s a rather over-broad, condescending, and borderline chauvinist generalization.

That's the beauty of humor.

Is that what people are finding funnny these days? I was at Barnes & Noble last week and flipped through a few things in the Humor section. One of them was pretty appalling, and it was titled something like Women Are Terrible.

I really like Jim Gaffigan, for what it’s worth. He’s reasonably popular as a humorist, and I’ve never heard him resort to chauvinism. If anything, his stage persona makes more fun of himself than anyone else.

Gaffigan's comedy is way too safe for my tastes.

Cards Against Humanity is a very popular game that people find funny these days. Some funny answers include:

Instead of coal Santa now gives the bad children... multiple stab wounds.

Step 1: Bitches. Step 2: Date rape. Step 3: Profit.

Step 1: Black people. Step 2: Agriculture. Step 3: Profit.

With enough time and pressure,... An ether-soaked rag. will turn into...Some peace and quiet.

What brought the orgy to a grinding halt? Child Protective Services.

What gives me uncontrollable gas? Aushwitz

Amputees. High five, bro.

What helps Obama unwind? The violation of our most basic human rights.

We never did find Grandpa's ashes, but along the way we sure learned a lot about Aushwitz.

When you get right down to it, A black male in his early 20s, last seen wearing a hoodie is just Not contributing to society in any meaningful way.

In the beginning there was African children. And the Lord said, "Let there be Ebola."

What really brings out the child in me? An abortion.

We regret to inform you that the Office of Existing has denied your request for A reason not to commit suicide.

The class field trip was completely ruined by An M16 assault rifle.

If God didn't want us to enjoy Ethnic cleansing, he wouldn't have given us Brown people.

Lifetime presents Assless chaps, the story of Kids with ass cancer.

This month's Cosmo: "Spice up your sex life by bringing Children on leashes into the bedroom"

In a world ravaged by 200 years of slavery, our only solace is Pretending to care.

If God didn't want us to enjoy A pile of squirming bodies, he wouldn't have given us September 11th, 2001.

Yep, this is what passes for humor these days.

I would say these days people simply find it offensive. I find it hilarious, because it is a brilliant blend of truth and nonsense, and it mocks that nonsense.

Not finding it funny is one thing. Taking it seriously is like that time China took an Onion article seriously.

There’s a difference between satire and mock-being-a-terrible-person. Although it gets a bit too salty for me at times, I “get” the Onion’s humor and think it’s frequently rather funny.

Has satire merely run out of new things to deconstruct that folks are turning to absurdist humor now?

I think that line is pretty thin. I also think in a pseudonymous web forum it rarely comes across as intended. We often need to know the author or have access to owners information to “get it”.

There are so many people with tattoos and bank accounts larger than yours

This is not the only troll comment you've posted, so if you continue we'll ban the account.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

This title is severely misleading, the article discusses pigments in tattoo ink, not tattoo ink in general. I am covered in tattoos, none of my tattoos have color.

"but researchers suggest dirty needles aren’t the only risk of the age-old practice"

I have also never seen an artist use a dirty needle, and would never let a dirty needle hit my skin with ink.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com