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Comment by emodendroket | Hacker News Reader

I also was recently in the market for a laptop and the listings for Amazon were so confusing and full of pitfalls it reminded me of the bad old days of eBay. Like three-line item titles making it hard to discern what model you were buying. I ended up buying from Best Buy.

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I would never buy a laptop from Best Buy, Amazon, or any other third party retailer. Consumer PC laptops are like most Android phones -- full of third party crapware.

I only buy either the business line of laptops from Dell or HP or I'll buy from the Microsoft Store - either online or physical store.

I just used my own license to install a fresh copy of Windows, so I didn't care. My laptop was a great deal so I am assuming I saved money over that route and I didn't really find it inconvenient.

I bought my last Macbook Pro from Best Buy. I had just moved and still had a coupon. No crapware to be found.

Apple products never have third party crapware. I was referring to Windows computers

You don't need third party crap when you're getting a machine with Apple Maps and iTunes. Don't Microsoft make it easy to remove all the crap ware these days?

Crapware == Crippleware where the OEM bundles third party trial software with the intended purpose of getting you to purchase the full version.

Notepad, the regular old command prompt, or IE is not generally considered "crapware". No matter how bad they are.

I must defend Notepad here. I enjoy having a simple text editor included on my machine that doesn’t try correct words or style anything. I often paste text from Word or Google Docs into Notepad, then paste into a WYSIWYG editor simply to remove all the inline span tags and other crust. Comes in handy when training others how to WordPress, for instance. TextEdit, on the other hand, is a rich text editor and gets in the way for this use case.

What's wrong with "the regular old command prompt"? It's served me well for ages.

Kind of weak line editing capabilities and annoying script compared to the alternatives. I'm a PS fan though.

The bundled crapware has nothing to do with where you buy your PC. Best Buy doesn’t install anything on the PCs they sell. Dell does, HP does, Lenovo does. You get the same crap if you buy direct or from a retailer.

If you buy a “Microsoft Signature” device, you pay a small premium essentially for the manufacturer to agree not to install crap. You might (or might not) get the same from the manufacturer if you buy a “business” laptop. But it all cases, it’s the manufacturer installing whatever crap comes on your PC.

I bought a desktop Gateway from BestBuy awhile back. It had Best Buy specific crapware and the "special edition" Dell was the same price from the MS store as it was from Dell's website.

Buying the business line from Dell gets you better local support and no crapware.

That’s interesting. I’ve never seen that. That means Best Buy has some deal to get a special Best Buy Crapware SKU from the manufacturer.

P.S. Gateway still exists?

P.P.S. Wikipedia says Gateway is defunct. How long ago was this experience?

It was 2013.

Gateway was bought by Acer and stop selling online and sells (sold?) exclusively through third party retailers.

Support was decent though. The hard drive crashed and I had to ship the entire computer back to them.

Not so much, but as recently as five years ago. They don't pre-image, but they open up the computer, and Geek Squad "optimizes" and "preps" it for you, including installing a bunch of crapware.

And then when you ask for one that hasn't been "prepared" they look at you like "why would you ever want that?" and when you insist, they'll apologize that they have none of that model in stock that haven't been prepared.

Seriously? That’s not a new machine at that point.

Sometimes Best Buy has exclusive models that have specific software put on there by the manufacturer. You can usually verify if you are getting one of those models by googling the full model number to see if there are other sellers than Best Buy out there.

Walmart is famous for doing this with all manner of goods (usually their version has some sacrifices to achieve a lower price).

Chromebooks from anywhere including Walmart are of course free of any crap.

They probably have slightly different hardware to keep a price edge. But anyway, to anyone on HN I'd think bundled software is pretty much a non-issue; I've always installed Windows fresh and I feel like doing that isn't a big deal if you are technical.

Where do you get a free non OEM install of Windows if you aren’t an MSDN subscriber?

Well, I am an MSDN subscriber. But if you aren't, can't you get a "recovery disc" from Microsoft somewhere and then use the serial on the label? I can recall doing something like this in the past.

If it is Windows 10, you can do so here https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10 Otherwise

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows8IS...

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows7

In some cases it does matter. There is a local PC store that is very overpriced, but they will build custom machines to your spec. I used to build my own machines as a hobby, but I just really don't have time for that any more. Not every city has one of these PC shops, mind you.

I prefer local stores for computers as well, since I know where they work and they know that I know where they work.

> Best Buy doesn’t install anything on the PCs they sell.

This isn't necessarily true. Some PCs are Best Buy specific models, with extra bloatware from Best Buy (in addition to the OEM bloatware from Dell / HP / Lenovo).

This also affects physical components sometimes. I remember from laptop shopping a few months ago, that the MSI GS63 Stealth laptop ships with a crappier screen specifically for the Best Buy model, where as most other models had a decent screen. This was done so that the Best Buy model would have an artificially-low price in comparison to online retailers.

Reading something like this I have two thoughts:

1. Why would PC manufacturers de-value their own brand like this!?

2. It almost makes sense why Apple can get away with charging a premium. No mystery meat hardware/crapware regardless of retailer.

Your two observations are connected. They do it because they are paid by the software maker, allowing them to sell the product for less.

People use to always talk about the “Windows tax” and say that computers would cost less if they didn’t come with Windows. Actually the opposite is true. With all of the deals they can make preinstalling bloat on their computers, OEMs could make more than enough to offset the cost of a Windows license. They couldn’t do that with alternative OS’s.

They probably could -- if there were a large demand for Linux laptops, there's no particular reason they couldn't come pre-installed with Linux-based adware.

They don’t see it as devaluing — the people who buy the cheapest thing have very little loyalty, and everyone else isn’t buying the cheap, adware-subsidized models anyway.

This explains the second part: it’s less that Apple charges a premium than that they don’t enter low-end segments. If you compare them to equivalent quality PCs (Surface, Signature edition, etc.) there’s not much of a difference.

Most business buyers understand this so I think the managers making those calls think of the consumer and business lines as almost separate brands, with the latter being both more profitable and longer term, and thus less likely to get nickel and dimed.

I think the market is more of a gradient and less of a clear bifurcation between budget and premium. If you are spending around a thousand dollars, you are not getting a top-of-the-line PC and there likely is some less egregious bundled software on it, but it's not bottom-of-the-barrel either.

PC manufacturers lost any perceived brand difference the minute they decided to take marketing dollars from Intel and add an “Intel Inside” sticker on their computers and add it to their ads and when they decided to co Rand with Windows even to the point of including a Windows logo to their keyboards. The only thing most consumers know and care about is that it’s a computer running Windows with an Intel chip.

I bought a MS Surface Pro a couple months back and they load it up full of "crapware" too. Thee are numerous games with constant pop-ups indicating what a deal I'll be getting if I only spend $99.95 for credits to keep playing, as well as the trial versions of MS Office that expire after 30 days.

Not the Surface Pro. The Microsoft Store sells “signature series” versions of computers from third party OEMs like Dell

I know it doesn't add a ton to the conversation to share an anecdote, but this conversation is really interesting to me right now. Tomorrow my new Asus Q325UA arrives, shipped from Best Buy. If you've never heard of the Q325UA, or have trouble finding reviews online, that's because it's the Best Buy version of the Flip S. In theory, it's very much the same machine, though I'm not sure from reviews if the Flip S typically ships with the sleeve or Asus mini dock - the Best Buy version only includes the Stylus. I'll find out the software situation tomorrow... and we'll see how the hardware does.

ETA: With a little research, I believe the primary hardware difference is SSD. SATA in Best Buy version, PCI-e in the Flip S.

I was shopping for a monitor and the specs that were displayed varied between items. Finding the frame rate they were capable of became a chore.

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