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> How is the Play Store related to the Google Seach app or to Chrome?

- They're not, and the attempt to claim they are part of a mobile "suite" is the same sort of obfuscation Microsoft used when they argued a web browser (IE) was an essential part of a desktop OS. This ruling seems obvious to me.

So good of you to cut right through the nuance.

But of course to an Android buyer, it is all a part of the experience with the device. They know what to expect and what is there.

"he same sort of obfuscation Microsoft used when they argued a web browser"

And Microsoft was right. Windows has Explorer or Edge. It still does. The EU giant fine did absolutely nothing but made them realize that cashing in big on American companies is essentially free. Of course I still download Firefox, just as you can do on Android.

“But of course to an Android buyer, it is all a part of the experience with the device. They know what to expect and what is there.”

The problem is that by not giving the choice makes this anti-competitive behaviour. What’s wrong with giving Samsung the ability to make a deal with Yahoo to install Yahoo as the default in their Android phones?

If they claim it’s all part of their integrated experience, then they should provide the necessary APIs/SDKs for other search providers to integrate properly.

We’ve been over this before, it’s anti-competitive behaviour, and it lacks choice.

> But of course to an Android buyer, it is all a part of the experience with the device.

Only if the device is advertised as being an Android, which is a trademark that you cannot use without Google’s agreement. You can’t use anything Google related actually, besides AOSP, so I don’t see how Google can make that argument with a straight face.

And on Microsoft... they could easily block any competition just like Apple is doing on iOS. That you are able to install Firefox on it, be thankful to previous antitrust fines they got ;-)

> same sort of obfuscation Microsoft used when they argued a web browser (IE) was an essential part of a desktop OS

How is a web browser not an essential part of a desktop OS.

Literally every single consumer operating system comes bundled with a web browser, and in fact everyone bundles their own

OSX: Safari

ChromeOS: Chrome

Windows: Edge

"Essential" and "useful" are not the same thing. A web browser isn't an essential part of a desktop OS the same way a network card isn't an essential part of a computer. Even though network cards come with most computers due to frequently being useful, they're not essential to the computer being a computer... computers can very much come without them, which people occasionally also find useful. Also, times have changed, and the web has become a far bigger part of people's life than it used to be.

> A web browser isn't an essential part of a desktop OS

That's so 1997. I would argue that a desktop OS isn't essential to my web browser. All I want my phone or my desktop computer for is to browse the web (not me but that's true for the vast majority of people). All this nonsense that comes with the OS is peripheral. Not essential. The only thing my phone or desktop needs to do is turn on, connect to the web, and download facebook.com and any other website I want. That's it. That's essential. Network card: essential. Web browser: essential. Any so-called computer without a network card is as good as a brick to me.

I believe that this does not really address what "essential" means in this argument, and I find you're both arguing the same point but semantically disagreeing.

The idea of a Web Browser being "essential" to an OS is to mean that the OS itself would not be complete without this specific browser, which is in fact not true. Whatever combination of OS + browser you elect to use, or of you eschew the common OS parts in favor of it being entirely browser based is your choice.

That is the contention when Google, and also when Microsoft, try to claim that their respective browsers are essential to their OSes. (Before anyone tries to call me out, yes, Apple is just as silly with iOS, but at least they attempt to have some very fragile ground to stand on regarding performance)

So the argument isn't that a web browser isn't essential to modern day computing, it's that the OS itself does not need a built in one to be complete, or any specific browser to realize its goal of being an OS.

> How is a web browser not an essential part of a desktop OS.

MS argued that the specific web browser IE was essential and I think that's the type of argument that is problematic, both for MS and Google

Not just essential -- atomic. Inseparable.

I don't know if you remember the 90s, but it actually, literally was with the integration of active desktop and other features that brought html and web scripting (and all their vulnerabilities, but that was a blessed time before XSS had been termed yet alone abused) directly into Windows explorer.

Internet Explorer and the Windows shell were the same code. There's a reason why until this day the Windows shell is `explorer.exe` - it and `iexplore.exe` (IE) were the one and the same. You could open a file explorer to C:\ and then type in `msn.com` in the address bar, and the PC wouldn't blink.

> How is a web browser not an essential part of a desktop OS.

The short answer, at the time anyways, was that you could just delete it to no consequence. It was just another program.

Some of the phones do "need" a browser as they provide it as a feature to apps, so things are a bit murkier now.

That's the moment your OS becomes a "mobile app platform", or a "software distribution". Or just the definition of OS changes. Or maybe not, because Windows was always more than the kernel. And it always included Notepad. But Notepad was never essential. And traditional UNIXes always came with a lot of user space programs. (And thre are essential user space apps for POSIX-y OSes, right? Things like the coreutils programs, ls, stat, cut, test, rm, [, sh, etc.)

And there's the WebView component, that's part of the SDK, that's essential, and it can be a dependency, or it can be bundled into the APK. (There's even https://crosswalk-project.org/ that is basically new WebView for old phones - Chromium built for old phones.)

> How is the Play Store related to the Google Seach app or to Chrome?

“Related to” does not mean that they are the literally same thing. They are clearly related as a suite of applications which form the core experience of what is called “Android”.

The law doesn’t say that if it is technically possible to unbundle a set of options from a product offering to be sold al la carte that companies must do that.

These are all essential components of one product — a mobile OS. Mixing and matching, for the vast majority of users, is neither practical or expected, and absolutely negatively impacts the brand.

> Mixing and matching, for the vast majority of users, is neither practical or expected, and absolutely negatively impacts the brand.

Microsoft should be delighted then that they can force Internet Explorer on everyone again.

> They are clearly related as a suite of applications which form the core experience of what is called “Android”.

That argument doesn't hold for Chrome. The core experience of Android is the AOSP browser (aka Android Browser). Later Google started to use their monopoly to force the inclusion of Chrome alongside Android Browser, followed by the removal of Android Browser in Android 4.4.

And even now, the only reason Chrome is part of the "core android experience" is because Google pushes hard to make it that way. There are plenty of other good mobile browsers.

>These are all essential components of one product — a mobile OS

But Google doesn't licence the OS. They donated the OS to Open Source, and use their licencing agreement for the App store to control unrelated parts of the OS experience

Microsoft should be delighted then that they can force Internet Explorer on everyone again.

Microsoft does force Internet Explorer cum Edge on everyone. They never stopped. When the EU forced them to offer a trivial "justify a giant fine" selection tool it did essentially nothing in regards to browser share. It keeps getting cited as the precedent, and while it is in the "EU makes some fat bank" way, it did absolutely nothing for consumers. And that's for an OS that was tremendously more entrenched, whereas I recently swapped out my GS8 for an iPhone 8 with nary a hiccup (and as an aside still enjoy all those Google services).

There is so much bullshit happening throughout this discussion.

Elsewhere people are claiming that Chrome became popular because Google pushed it on their homepage, which is just ridiculous, revisionist nonsense. Chrome became popular because it earned word of mouth as a lighter, faster browser. It exploded. The same happened with Firefox. Because the platform was open and allowed you to choose whatever you want to run. Just as I can and do run Firefox on Android.

Further, vendors/carriers only abuse the right to put in alternatives. It is traditionally called crapware.

> …which is just ridiculous, revisionist nonsense.

As is your version of events. As with all extreme points of view, the truth lies somewhere towards the middle.

> They are clearly related as a suite of applications which form the core experience of what is called “Android”.

I'm using Android every day and never once opened Chrome (instead I'm using the Lightning browser) or used the Google app to search (I'm just searching directly in my browser). So IMHO that's definitely NOT the core experience of Android, while the Play Store is.

Same. The Android experience is being able to choose your own browser, media player, email app etcetera.

I know ecosystems make corporations a lot of money and some people prefer them. And they can choose an iPhone or Pixel.

Neat. So the OS allowed you to choose alternatives and to avoid Chrome wholly. So you're fully of the opinion that the EU argument has no merit then, right?

Of course, saying it's a part of the Android/Google Experience is from the average consumer. You know that you have the Chrome browser if you so choose. Yes, you can go to the Play Store and install Firefox. Unlike on iOS where the browser alternatives are facades.

It's the same argument as with Microsoft vs. the EU regarding IE: Defaults are important when you have a monopoly.

I'm pretty sure that an important part of the Microsoft argument was that you couldn't uninstall ie and it was used by certain system functions even if you set a different default. That's an important distinction.

(Im a Googler, but that's not particularly relevant to this comment)

I can't uninstall Chrome on my LG Android phone either.

No, but you can fully disable it (and that's equivalent to uninstalling, and wasn't possible on windows).

That is certainly not the equivalent as it still occupies storage.

Also, you could actually uninstall IE. That only uninstalled the shell, not the libraries (as there were dependencies) but it was gone in terms of the application.

An "app" on Android is not a traditional executable. It's really a library and a collection of OS hooks that execute code from that library on various events.

The home screen icon is one of those hooks but by far not the only one. If I hide it or never press it, that implies exactly nothing about whether or not code from the app gets executed while I use the phone.

I've never gone into the Bluetooth settings on my phone, that doesnt mean it's abusive that it was already there on my phone when I bought it.

OEMs can change the Bluetooth settings though.

> Mixing and matching, for the vast majority of users, is neither practical or expected, and absolutely negatively impacts the brand.

Firefox has over a 100 million downloads according to the Play Store, so that argument at least doesn't work for bundling Chrome.

But that is 100 million out of over 6 billion Android phones shipped [1] which means around 2% of users install Firefox.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/263445/global-smartphone...

Play store shows Chrome installed 1b+ times, with 9M ratings, Firefox has 3M ratings and 100m+ installs. So it can easily mean 950 million installs for Firefox.

> I prefer rooted CyanogenMod / LineageOS over stock Android

Well then, that's your choice, and with that you admit to belong to some 0.0001% of Android users who are willing to open up their phones to all kinds of security exploits, and reduce its value to some laughable percentile, as is known, with CyanogenMod / LineageOS most of the good part go to hell, camera goes to hell, performance goes, ... and you get what? Glowing aura of open source user

>with CyanogenMod / LineageOS most of the good part go to hell, camera goes to hell, performance goes

All that goes to hell because Google prevents almost all first party support for LinageOS (or any other forks), which is why Google gets fined now. In a theoretical world where Google didn't do the things they are fined for, LineageOS might work much better on a wider range of hardware and thus have much more mainstream appeal.

And I get a phone that's six years old and still works as designed, despite bloat pouring in from app vendors. I understand that I should have dumped that as a brick of e-waste to a landfill, seven years ago. Imagine a very uncivil rant starting from here, on where you should stuff your privileged SV advice.