Why the UK has so many words for bread | Hacker News Reader

Why the UK has so many words for bread

bbc.com

26 pointsMiriamWeiner66 comments

I'm quite familiar with the study they cite in the article - http://projects.alc.manchester.ac.uk/ukdialectmaps/lexical-v... - because:

1. I know the guy at Manchester University who runs the infrastructure for that site

2. That same individual and I had a multi-year argument about the nature of a "teacake", which to me always has raisins in it. To him that's a fruit teacake. This settled the argument: it's just regional variation.

The study did not just look at names for bread. Favourite other highlights:

1. Evening meal names: http://projects.alc.manchester.ac.uk/ukdialectmaps/lexical-v...

2. The game where you knock on a door and run away http://projects.alc.manchester.ac.uk/ukdialectmaps/lexical-v...

3. The (Irish descended) whether "book" and "spook" rhyme: http://projects.alc.manchester.ac.uk/ukdialectmaps/phonologi...

4. Whether "class" and "farce" rhyme (also likely indicates pronunciation of bath, garage, grass, etc.): http://projects.alc.manchester.ac.uk/ukdialectmaps/phonologi...

5. How acceptable sentences that break the rules of grammar are: http://projects.alc.manchester.ac.uk/ukdialectmaps/syntactic...

Definitely encourage people to have a look through some of the menus.

1. Dinner 2. Knock knock ginger 3. No 4. Yes 5. Unacceptable

5. as a non native speaker, what on earth does ‘they’re just things what we’ve used’ even mean? I've read these sentence many times and I still can't figure it out...

The same as "they're just things that we've used".

"They're just things that we've used" means the same thing, if that helps.

Spatula, pot, spoon, bowl.

Those are things that we have used [today to make and eat soup].

For some reason, particularly round my parts, 'that' is often swapped for 'what', e.g. "Places what I've gone to."

1. Tea 2. knock and run 3. The two northerners in this household would disagree on this answer. I say no 4. No, of course not 5. unacceptable

My grandad went further:

Water and walker did not rhyme (water rhymed with batter), neither did father and farther.

There are also variations of words for alleyway. For example when I moved to Yorkshire I was amused to hear people use the word ginnel. In Norfolk I think they use twitten. Probably many others around the Isles.

It's perhaps worth pointing out, for anyone planning a trip to the UK and suddenly alarmed by our baffling array of dialect terms for bread, that the standard international terms like "bread roll" and "baguette" are absolutely understood by every English speaker in the UK. Even in deepest, darkest Yorkshire you are unlikely to run into difficulties ordering something involving bread unless you really go out of your way to use a dialect term that you genuinely don't understand.

I'm a native English speaker and I've never heard most of those, probably because I didn't grow up in the UK.

When I went to university in Lancaster, I didn't know what a "bacon bap" was (it's a plain bread roll with bacon inside, maybe butter if you're lucky). People ate them for breakfast.

If someone said "batch", I'd probably be confused with "bach" (NZ slang for a small apartment, which is pronounced as if it has a "t" in it).

To save time reading the article, here's the list.

bread roll, blaa, batch, barm, teacake, currant teacake, muffin, bun, cob, oven bottoms, scufflers, breadcakes, barm cake, soft bap, crusty cob.

And a pun. How did the baker get an electric shock? He stood on a bun and a currant ran up his leg.

Barm was always barmcake when I were a lad. So in Manchester it would have been a bacon barmcake. Barm' was an occasional abbreviation from over-busy shop workers.

As someone who's travelled around some with work this can get confusing real quick. You just want some sort of bread with bacon, egg and black pudding on your way to work without recruiting an interpreter. That's quite apart from ending up in uncivilised parts that don't feel black pud is necessary. :)

What got me in Ireland was the difference between a sausage roll and a breakfast roll. You’d expect them to be roughly the same, but not at all.

Not just Ireland my friend, that's all of the UK.

Although a hot sausage roll[1] is perfectly acceptable as a breakfast food, it is not a breakfast roll. :)

Edit: Mis-read 'Ireland' as Northern Ireland (Oops!), which is of course not part of the UK!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sausage_roll

No haha both evoke two very different images.

Sausage roll: puff pastry filled with sausage meat (no skin).

Breakfast roll (with clarity for non-Brits): half a full English on a roll i.e sausage (with skin, perhaps halved for convenience), bacon (back not streaky) and fried egg ("sunny side up" and "over easy" - a fried egg not done this way is very poor form).

My SO manages a popular bakery chain store down south. Being from Lancastershire when someone asks for a sausage roll she always has to ask for clarification (‘bread or pastry?).

I have regular arguments with my SO over the technical differences between barmcakes and, what I call all small round bread, bread rolls. Never heard barm until I came to Lancastershire but it’s probably my favourite synonym for it. Get funny looks when ordering a bacon barm in London, however.

I best stay out of that one other than to observe there are differences. :D

Another native English speaker that grew up as an expat here: similarly I’d only recognise ’bread’; a ”bacon bap” was a thing unto itself, as were teacakes (as far as I am concerned). And yet I know words such as ’slovenly’, ’incardinate’, and ’adipocere’ (off the top of my head) so my vocabulary isn’t poor.

> And yet I know words such as

anyone who had to do their SAT or GRE would have probably crammed these 500 or 1000 word lists. it's much less common to have to learn words for bread or bread rolls. if you complicate things by putting stuff between bread or bread rolls then you have yet another massive list of words like baps, cobs, rolls, subs, butties, sarnies, sangers, sliders, stotties, or and other names for sammies. these words are so region-specific that English speakers around the world don't see 99% of these words.

Oh, you have to be careful. You can't just go anywhere and call it a bap. That's because it's a barm.

We joke about regional differences in names with mock defensiveness. In Manchester, my area at least, it's a barm and that's that. Even if it isn't technically a barm (not made with barm and is actually sold as a bap).

Oven bottoms are awesome. Those are called barms too. A cob, roll generally means the crusty variety, freshly baked.

A teacake to us is always a barm with currants toasted.

Funny that. I'll need to explore - I didn't realise!

Also from Manchester/North Derbyshire. Nobody is going to complain if you call it a barm, a bap, a roll or even a cob - people will know what you mean.

Teacake has your definition unless you're from Burnley, in which case what you're describing is a fruit teacake. Without the fruit it's what I call a bap or a barm. Look at the study cited in the article.

No hahaha. It's a common joke. Often see things like this making the rounds on social media:

https://images1.memedroid.com/images/UPLOADED18/5089de622790...

If I post that, I can guarantee there'll be mock debate along with a few Americans scratching their heads. It is, for better or worse, a joke.

For such light hearted jest - it's bread - I wouldn't have expected so much seriousness for an equally light hearted regional perspective.

You also have to be careful in some places when asking for a mince pie. You might get a sweet christmas treat or a pie filled with mince.

Never had that problem. Clearly not explored enough!

I like both so a pie filled with mince would be a pleasant surprise.

You also have to keep in mind that “baps” can be slang for breasts as well.

Oh yes. A lady I knew from Chadderton called them that. Always wondered if they called a barm, well, a barm.

I grew up in the UK (Midlands and South) and have heard of all of these except blaa and scufflers.

It took longer (late teens / early twenties) to come across the northern words, since my family hardly ever visited the North.

“Bach”, as in short for bachelor pad?

Yes, that explains the pronunciation.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_%28New_Zealand%29

People have thought this, but they are usually family holiday homes so it doesn't really make any sense. However, no one really knows where it came from at this point.

I hadn't heard of "teacake" - I think that up in Scotland it's not so common, people would associate the word with Tunnock's Teacake: http://www.tunnock.co.uk/products/teacakes

Confusing thing is: that's still a teacake round here! Easiest way I've found is to say "you know, a non-squashed wagon wheel"

As it says in the article, you go to the cob shop and get a cheese cob, bacon cob, sausage cob, chip cob, pork pie cob (with peas).

I grew up in the East Midlands.

> I'd probably be confused with "bach" (NZ slang for a small apartment,

Which part of NZ did you grow up in? To me (Auckland, ext. family from various places on the South Island), bach doesn't mean small apartment, it means not-very-classy holiday home. This aligns with what wikipedia thinks[1], including disagreeing with your later assertion about bach being short for bachelor pad (which I also have not heard before and doesn't sound right to me)

This is super interesting really, for the same reason the study is. Even in a tiny country like NZ we can think local words mean different things.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_%28New_Zealand%29

It reminds me how many different words for bread and pastry are in the other languages and dialects. In Russian there's famous difference between 'батон' (baton) in Moscow and 'булка' (bulka) and St.Petersburg, but there's also 'шаньга' (shan'ga) to the east of Volga, which would be called 'лепешка' (lepyoshka) in central Russia, and there are lots of others, all sorts of pirogi (pirozhok, belyash, rasstegai, karavai, sochnik, vatrushka...). As Russians say, bread is the head of everything.

In German there are so many varieties of 'brötchen', that it probably can be used instead of GPS for identifying your location. Schrippe, Semmel, Weck and so on, and this should not be a surprise: after all, it is bread that is the main course of German cuisine from Baltic coast to Rhine. Germany has the biggest variety of bread in the world.

The coolest part of it is that this diversity will never cease to exist because of the internet and all of the technology disruptions. People may move from one place to another, bringing their own words and meanings, or share a recipe online under the name that would feel unfamiliar or unusual to a local, but in the end they will always go to the local bakery and buy a bulka or a schrippe, as proud Pitertsy or Berliners.

> A study conducted by the University of Manchester identified seven terms used around the UK for the generic bread roll, mostly found in Northern England, or, in the case of ‘bap’ and ‘blaa’, Scotland and Ireland.

As usual, the Scottish islands got ignored. In Orkney, a white roll is called a 'Softie'.

So that's at least eight terms; the Hebrides probably have their own word too.

'Softie' is what they were called where I grew up in Moray - of course we actually survived on rowies (i.e. butteries). I used to live two doors from a small bakers (now since long closed) and being able to get freshly baked rowies for breakfast was awesome.

NB There were definitely links with Orkney through fishing.

Yes, 'butteries' are the other Orkney roll favourite, and my personal fave.

(Pronounced "but'rees" in a flat-monotone, which is the typical Orcadians' Scottish/Norwegian accent)

> In Orkney, a white roll is called a 'Softie'.

Does that refer specifically to the soft rolls that are popular in Scotland? You can't find them everywhere in England. In Tesco they were called a McSomething roll.

About a year ago I visited the UK, London to be precises. I came all the long way from mainland Europe.

To prepare for the next day I wanted to by some bread. Compared what I was used to, the shopping mall was huge, and apparently open 24/7. I was looking for some bread and found a long aisle with all the bread London had to offer.

But it was all white and squishy .. and not what I was used to [0] I went back on forth to see If I maybe overlooked something. Nope.

I found a WholeFoods, which sold what I wanted. But most of it was gluten free and kinda expensive.

TL;DR: Visited UK, got culture shocked by them not having the bread I wanted.

[0] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Va...

Sadly a lot of supermarket bread is made using the Chorleywood process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process

Smaller bakeries will have a wider range of bread types and in my area the local shop will sell polish style rye breads and Caribbean breads (usually sweeter and denser)

The dark bread you have in your picture is available in London but can be a bit tricky to find (I would expect larger supermarkets to stock it)

It's also not too difficult to get middle eastern flat breads with a little bit of searching.

"a long aisle with all the bread London had to offer." - to be fair it sounds like that's what a single shop had to offer. But it is true that the majority of bread sold in the UK is terrible (made cheaply following the Chorleywood process as mentioned in a sibling comment). The bread in your picture looks like some kind of pumpernickel or rye - most supermarkets have that - the German ones (Lidl/Aldi) do for sure.

London isn't culturally homogenised (although certain central parts are a bit, especially the touristy areas). You can find all kinds of exotic and amazing foods in London - in part because there are many many different immigrant communities scattered around the various boroughs. But you aren't going to find them in one day, or in a supermarket or shopping mall, so it's not a quick or easy thing for someone on a short visit. Even living there for years a lot of people end up getting intimate with what's available in 2 or 3 boroughs and miss out on everything else.

UK supermarkets (Morrison, Sainsburys, Waitrose, Asda, Tesco) are the worse places to find proper good food.

The European supermarket chains (Lidl, Aldi) which also have UK stores, are much better for food varieties.

However, for the BEST meat, fish, veg, cheese, and bread... you need to hunt out farmers markets, or if you are in central London, head down to Borough Market[1] on Saturday mornings.

[1] http://boroughmarket.org.uk/

Yeah, it was Tesco.

Went to a marked the next day. Just found it funny that a country that is 30 minutes away does not have "real" bread in the large supermarked :D

Wheat grows well in the UK, so there's no tradition of making bread from rye. There is choice, but between white, wholemeal and whole grain wheat bread. You should usually find rye bread in the allergies/restricted diet section, as a gluten free option, but it won't be fresh. Maybe fresh rye bread if you're in a German/Eastern European dominated area.

What? I love Tesco!

I'm french, living in the UK for half a year now. Tesco has such a high variety of fresh salads, fleshly cut fruits/vegetables... The convenience of going to Tesco and buying precut ingredients WITHOUT an horrible premade sauce smeared all over them is something I'll miss going back to France.

This is from the point of view of a single young professional that hates spending too much time cooking but at the same time wants to do it for health reasons.

You can find good bread in the UK, but not in a supermarket.

Same with most food actually.

Rye bread is fairly unusual in the UK, but I don't think you can criticize the country for that. Do they sell it in France or Spain? Tesco has some [0].

Most British bread is closer to the French style than the Germanic style. The majority of [1] has a hard crust but a squashy middle, like a baguette.

We should criticize most of [2] (the ones wrapped in film), this is the Chorleywood process bread where the whole thing is squashy.

(Links are to Tesco, but for anyone that does visit, Waitrose is the highest quality national, large supermarket.)

[0] https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/search?query=rye%20bre...

[1] https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/shop/bakery/from-our-b...

[2] https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/shop/bakery/bread-and-...

But only one for dessert... Seems like a proper balance.

There's at least two ("pudding").

Sure Ive heard many more. Pudding being the most used with my English side of the family but they also say Sweet for dessert.

Có

I don't know why the UK has so many words for bread when they have no bakeries. All the bread here is being sold and bought in large supermarket chains such as Tesco or Asda and it's not good at all.

There should be. I know at least one bakery chain from UK (Paul), that opened recently in Russia.

I live in London and never heard of "Paul".

Are you sure it's actually from the UK? In some countries appearing foreign is part of the branding strategy.

Ah, sorry, it's French. It has some presence in UK :)

Ive seen a few Paul's. Around Holborn etc. Seems a more "artisan" bakery.

There's quite a few in London, generally on high streets and in stations rather than residential shopping areas - it's more of a boulangerie/patisserie/cafe than a bakery per se. e.g. Fleet Street - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5142772,-0.1074076,3a,75y,...

I second both counts: No bakeries, and the bread is terrible anyway.

> No bakeries

This is just totally false.

In a city as large in London, obviously I don't literally mean zero bakeries. But they're not common.

What? There are bakeries in nearly every high street. They have survived much better than greengrocers and butchers shops have.

This may depend on where you live. Down here in Brighton we've an abundance of bakeries selling excellent breads.

There's tonnes of bakeries. Most people buy bread from supermarkets, which I'd wager is true almost everywhere, but I can think of three or four bakeries just within walking distance of me right now, never mind driving, and the same has been true of everywhere I've lived and worked in the country.

There are 3 bakeries within half a mile of me here in Liverpool.

And I'm not talking about Gregg's or Sayer's. I mean real, independent bread, cake and pastry makers.

85% from factory bakeries, 12% from in-store (i.e. supermarket) bakeries, 3% from "actual" bakeries.

It would be interesting to see figures from another European country.

https://www.fob.uk.com/about-the-bread-industry/industry-fac...

I am surprised that author was surprised about the "teacake" being sweet. I am not native speaker and yet it seems obvious to me. Cake is something sweet by design for few centuries already. Even if that's not the case, teacake's name suggest it's consumed with tea. If that assumption is correct, it's pretty common, in many cultures around the world, to have something sweet with tea to contrast the bitter flavor. Does it work differently in UK?

When you think about it, author doesn't discover anything new. It is common in any country big enough to get few regions and relatively rich cuisine to have a different/regional names for the same or similar dishes. Staple food (like bread) is the best example because, usually, it is ubiquitous in certain area.

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