Ask HN: Am I making too much? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Am I making too much?

115 pointsnotimportant103 comments

Hi HN, posting this anonymously as my regular account contains my name.

I have been working as a developer for well over 10 years, have worked in both small companies as well as large agencies. I keep up to date with various technologies and attempt to learn best practices and methodologies. I do not have a college degree and so far that hasn't been much of an issue with jobs in NYC.

I am currently making $110k, and have consistently increased in salary year after year as well as from job to job - but I am concerned I am slowly starting to reach my upper limit on how much I will be able to earn as simply a developer - am I wrong in assuming this? Are my possible salary expectations for future positions (I am currently employed, however open to new opportunities and have recently had a few interviews that I am waiting to hear back on) too high?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

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Rule of thumb in the valley, for a good senior level engineer (6+ years of experience), is about 120-140k salary, plus 10-20k bonus. That's what I think are averages, for GOOD/above average engineers in established companies (not startups). Keep in mind that a good or average engineer in some companies, could be easy a superstar in other companies. They are always outliers for expectational people, but it seems that the places that pay consistently less:

1. Don't care for top talent (they may not really need it).

2. Are not usually worth working for (eg. gaming industry / old finance/ companies that view tech as a cost)

3. Offer some kind of life quality balance and don't expect high outputs from their employees.

If you are not happy with your current salary you can still interview around and find another job. Don't necessary quit, but at least you would know whats out there. If your think your job is easy/cushy, then 110k is not that bad, but actually good. You can easily go somewhere else, and get a 20k bumb, but find out you have to work twice as hard. If you are really challenged, and are stressed, and feel underpaid, then you must do something:

1. Ask for a raise. 2. Find another job that pays better.

What I found out, is that no matter how fun the job is, if you feel 'underpaid', over time that will create some feelings of resentment and unhappiness. Also, if you get paid well, but hate the job, then you would still feel unhappy.

The happy medium, is finding something that you really like, and are happy with the salary at the same time (usually when you think you are on the higher range salary compared to your peers).

it seems that the places that pay consistently less:...old finance

I think you should clarify what "old finance" is. Finance in general pays considerably more than average.

eg. Wells Fargo, Fidelity Investments (where I had my first job), etc... they seem to have the 'cheaper' better mantra, view tech as a cost center, and like outsourcing too much. I am not necessary talking about wall street.

Sadly I am overworked, stressed and the job just does not excite me as it used to (at least in this sector that I work in) - there are some pros at my current place of employment as well; I just need to figure out if seeking new opportunities is worth it and especially at my current rate of income. Since I am seeing a lot of people mention positions that pay higher then I am also starting to think I might be underpaid. More things to add to my stress :)

Going from "Making too much?" to "Damn, I might be underpaid.." is quite a change during the course of ~12 hours.. ;-)

One more reason to take a step back. This is an international, diverse crowd of people and obviously you'll find people that both earn more and people that earn less than you. I tend to think (guessing wildly) that we have a biased set here, though, with average+ developers participating on this site. If that is correct, you'd end up with a result set that is biased towards the upper end of the salary range as well..

In the end I'd try to find out what the comfortable amount of money to sustain your preferred lifestyle is. With that number in mind I, personally, would recommend looking for a job that does excite you, won't burn you out - and would rather take a hit on the salary side.. I'm not sure if that is something you're open to, though, since this thread topic started with salary alone, not salary vs. quality of life..

I realize that that was a foolish thing to say ;) I won't take this thread as a reason to storm in to my employers office demanding a raise; but it is useful information to plan my future out accordingly. My current train of thought was that I would have no choice but to enter management shortly to be able to move up; and as stated in some of my replies, it's not something I want to do. With the realization that I may be able to expand quite a bit still as a developer alone (granted I am overseeing people, but it's far from managerial type functions) than it allows me to see what career path I can make for myself.

Quality of life will always remain important to me; but at the same token it's not all about the money, and it's not all about leaving at a punctual time. I understand this sector can call for some long and grueling hours and have paid my dues and am still willing to do so when necessary. As for salary, I have turned down jobs that were better compensated - but the atmosphere didn't sit well with me.

Sadly this is so confusing, and I hope I will be able to make more sense of everything as this thread continues to expand.

...we have a biased set here, though, with average+ developers participating on this site. If that is correct, you'd end up with a result set that is biased towards the upper end of the salary range as well..

Since notimportant is a random member of this biased sample, we should also assume he is one of the average+ developers participating here.

I'm in the Washington DC area, in which salaries are typically lower than NYC but higher than most other metropolitan areas in the US.

The highest-paid non-management developer that I know of had a base salary of $185k. That may or may not be the ceiling, but there certainly is some salary ceiling.

Ways to break through that salary ceiling:

1. Direct reports. If you manage even one person, then base salaries quickly go into the $200 and $300 thousands.

2. Highly specialized technical knowledge. For example, I know SAP implementers with base salaries in the $200s. They're not really "developers" anymore however.

3. Highly specialized domain knowledge. For example, a developer with enough knowledge of organic chemistry can make a $200k+ base at a pharmaceutical company.

4. Work for yourself. A fully-loaded consultant will easily make mid-$200k and I know several people who are consistently grossing in the low $300ks.

Note the importance of base salary. Bonuses and profit sharing can easily add 50% or more to your earnings. For example, the $100k developer at CoStar is probably taking home more than the $175k developer at AOL.

4. Work for yourself. A fully-loaded consultant will easily make mid-$200k and I know several people who are consistently grossing in the low $300ks.

I will second that one. This seems to be about the norm for a developer turn consultant (at least in my group of freelancers) with a decade under their belt.

I don't think you are at your upper bound of your career level, but you are not far off, 150k seems to be the ceiling where you are going to start bouncing up and down.

A recruiter called me the other day to see if I had a flash developer in my network looking for a long term gig. They where offering 90k + 15% bonus for a flash developer with 3 years experience. So you are not that much higher than a mid level flash developer, I would not worry too much.

I'm sorry, but I never understood: What does "consultant" entail, exactly? Is it writing code for other companies, telling their devs how to write code, telling them how to engineer their systems, or what exactly?

Here's what I do:

(1) Write code that in house devs could not write. Usually integrations for multiple technology sets, including things that I can teach myself that others would need training for, and otherwise complicated pieces that might otherwise be neglected. Usually after I deliver an "app" (I usually try to stick to a self-contained deliverable), I participate in training the in house devs to maintain it (assuming that it needs to be changed).

(2) In my limited experience very few companies that have "bad" code in house recognize that their code is bad, so refactoring / optimizing / architecting is usually neglected. That said, I try to get in on the architecting side -- make sure good design principles are adhered to. I try never to re-write other people's code.

I'm flush with work and us. bill out approximately 25-30k per month and am always looking for subs to handle things that I can't (contact me if interested).

There are, of course, taxes that hit me then and I don't particularly like the work that I do so try to take longish vacations to work on projects of interest, but still I'm easily making upwards of 200k as a developer.

But then again, hackers might think of me (quite legitimately) as the trash collector of developers, mucking about in enterprise frameworks that no legit hacker would want to write code in. I guess that's why I'm paid so much...

Basically the trick is getting out w/ one big customer, letting that take up 70% of your time, working in subs on things that you can't handle yourself (but this may be difficult, none of my subs make less than $100 / hr), pursuing other projects that get you recognition (open source is good), actively contributing to the community, and then, unfortunately for many developers, networking.

But mostly I try to let my code network for me...

That was very informative, thank you. Is $100/hr typical for the US? Maybe I've been undercharging at $55...

I don't know what's typical but the best way to see if you're charging too little is to put in some bids for $60, then $65, and so on and see what happens.

I have worked for a guy that was able to increase his prices nearly 25% (for new customers at least, he understandably didn't want to raise rates for the longtime customers who got him started) just by slowly raising his bids until he found what enough people would pay.

Disclaimer: This was for a construction company that got new customers by word-of-mouth YMMV

This.

I vividly remember the day that I woke up and decided that from now on, I would charge $175/hr instead of $125/hr. Bookings actually increased.

Just keep raising your rates until

(a) You can't get any more gigs, or

(b) You feel too guilty to raise them anymore.

Just curiosity but how exactly do you market yourself? How do your clients find you?

Yep, good advice. I don't even think #2 is necessary, really...

I will, thanks. Currently I'm way more busy than I'd like, which tells me I need to raise my rates. I might even end up making more...

You have definitely been undercharging.

$75/hr is the low end, and $200/hr is the high end.

As one data point: when I ran an independent consulting practice from 2002 - 2006, my prices started at $125/hr and grew to $225/hr.

Yep, it looks like it... Prices go down the larger the project is, but I have a tendency to cut them 30% for more than a few hours... Maybe I should keep them high and see what happens, thanks...

Do you mind if I ask what you did, roughly? I mean, what was the object of your work?

That's about my experience, although under a shorter time frame (6 months instead of 4 years).

How would one go about contacting you? Do you do mostly SalesForce implementations?

I do development in the Salesforce world but I wouldn't call most of what I do implementations. My blog, linked in my profile, has a link to my Linked in profile.

Yes.

But also performance tuning and administration and interviewing new employees and understanding their business and suggesting new software for them and telling them not to buy new software.

It's whatever you are better than them at and they will pay money for.

Thanks, I suspected it was a catch-all term, then. It also turns out that my side-business is consulting, but I wasn't aware of the term. Now that you've explained it to me, I can better market my skills, thank you.

Consulting = contracting, but you make more money. You basically sell yourself as someone who adds value, not just someone who fills in the blanks.

i agree working for yourself is a way to break through the ceiling... but it's largely irrelevant to what he should expect as "simply a developer." being a consultant involves more risk and requires more skills than being an employee. you have more risk and uncertainty about work. you have to sell yourself. you have more difficult access to health insurance. you usually get paid later than you would as an employee. you have more risk of not getting paid. you are responsible for collecting the money. you don't get any paid vacation. holidays means a lighter invoice. it's different. more risk = more potential reward

Agreed - while it seems to be a nice lifestyle for some, the stress of not having a steady paycheck, the constant seeking for new work and the obvious role of being a debt collector makes it something that I'm not sure if I personally can do (I am dealing with a client who owes me money from March and I am still having a hard time getting them to pay up at this point).

I guess maybe I am lucky or it may be a case of the worst experiences seem to have the highest volume setting in our brain and people focus on the horror stories. But I have only had one non-payment in the entirety of my freelancing experience. All of my clients pay on time (net 30) and I always require 50% payment for the first invoice before I start work. I do this to ensure that I have a paying customer and if they are not willing to front 50% for operation costs associated with the development then they are most likely not a customer that I would want.

The chasing of debt has never been more than a friendly reminder email and my paycheck has always been steady to the extent that I can decide how much I want to earn that week with a pretty handsome upper-bound. It may be the type of consulting that I do (it is not a saturated market) but my experience has been pretty good and I have been at this off and on for a while.

I have had some great experiences as well; but there have been a slight handful that just are very slow to pay. The person I am hunting down for payment now has agreed to pay me as well as paid over half of their money owed - it's just they are taking a lot longer than is acceptable.

If I knew I could have a more reliable flow of income, freelancing/contracting would be amazing.

You could always factor your receivables and let them chase in the event of non-payment. This takes you out of the accounting and finance game, but you do give up a percentage of the amount of the receivable. I know as few people who do it as they have no interest in running their accounting operations. The factor acts as an accounts payable department with the added benefit that you get your money up front and don't take the risk of non-payment. Now if the client is a high risk client it is usually reflected in the discount on the receivable that you must provide. Many non paying customers, become good paying customers when a factor is involved because they don't play games. Best part is you don't have to play bad guy, because you "sold" the receivable so it is not the actions or the responsibility of your company to enforce payment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factoring_(finance)

Another Washington DC / Baltimore guy here. The highest base salary for a software developer I've heard of is in the same ballpark (195k).

I've also noticed that the high salaries seem to go to the people who are the most ambitious.

I'm assuming these are specialists rather than typical web developer positions, yes? Otherwise I might be underpaying.

The tech market in general is experiencing a depression of technical talent. Three things caused this issue:

#1 was the .com bust it drove a lot of talented people out of the market as well as most of the "gold rushers" (aka people who learned flash in a week and where commanding 90k for crap). A good deal of those people moved on to other careers in other fields. Probably in the area of 40% of my associates of that era are now in business or pure science related fields.

#2 Again .com bust but this time educational. The university tech programs experienced the same issue. The money went and so the students that where in it for the money jumped off the ship. I was going back to school at this time and it was literally 1 day full class, next day, me and two other guys in the class.

#3 "we'll outsource it all" did not work. Companies terminated entire development teams to move them off shore only to have to bring them back after the fact. Each time you do this, it is the breaking point for some of the individuals who decide that this one is the last one and leave the industry.

So yes, if you think you are underpaid then you are underpaid especial for "typical web developer" which is one of the hottest fields in tech. This industry has the peculiar way of chewing people up and spitting them out. If you go by the numbers chances are you wont last in it. You need to charge a rate that reflects that reality. The funny part is once you do your resilience in putting up with the grind becomes higher. I have lasted a long time in this industry and I can tell you there where two times that I tried to get out. It can and will burn you out, it is just a matter of whether or not you can survive the burnouts without leaving the industry. A fare wage for the work has a lot to do with being able to survive it until it passes.

i have to disagree.

The only thing i see degrading the market is that a good developer have a hard time to find a job for 200/yr. while a manager can easily earn that 200/yr and manage half a dozen incompetents developers for 75/yr.

that makes the good developer behave like a incompetent because of the low pay or move to management (and then the half a dozen incompetents will be doing the work anyway)

I didn't inquire too much, but I assume the job required a specialist.

Who's hiring programmers that know organic chemistry? It would be nice to put my chemistry degree to work.

Here's one example:

Senior Scientific Software Developer

http://www.eyesopen.com/careers#sssd

Not sure what level of O-Chem you studied, but from the limited salary data that I am privy to, it seems that you need a graduate degree in Chemistry before this starts to add significantly to your base salary.

Out of curiosity, what would you have done if someone had said "Yes, you are making too much money."

Fair question - I would be more realistic in my future job opportunities and take a better view at my current job. I would obviously strive to make the most I can with my skill-set, but I wouldn't price myself out of jobs that I am qualified for.

(posting anonymously for obvious reasons)

Like a recent HN post highlighted, expertise in a disruptive niche is very helpful in breaking down salary barriers. That being said, I would expect mid-100s to be within reach of a strong, senior, non-managing engineer in SF/NYC with no particularly disruptive expertise.

For what it's worth, here's my experience:

I'm on the operations side, and have gained experience building reasonably large-scale, cloud-hosted infrastructure in my past few jobs. I'm in my mid-twenties, and have not completed my college degree.

- mid-2008: 75k (plus options) as a sysadmin (non-managing) for a 30-person startup in a mid-American city

- early 2010: 100k (plus options) as a sysadmin (non-managing) for a 15-person startup in SF

- mid-2010: 160k (plus 70k/yr stock+bonus) as a systems architect (managing a team of two, but this wasn't required) for a public company in the Bay Area (I also turned down an offer for 130k+options at a NYC startup)

Mind providing a link to that recent HN article? I missed it.

Always a tough issue. I know that as you move up a little bit in the hierarchy at my company, you start seeing people in NYC making around $500,000 + bonus in "technology roles", so that's my mental upper limit. I don't see myself ever making more than that.

As for determining my own value, I worked for a lot of cheap companies early on and am still trying to compensate for that. It's all about guessing the right number with no actual data, which is a pain. If I knew that all programmers made $x per year, I would ask for $x plus a small premium (because let's face it, I can do more than just FizzBuzz).

But there is no data, and nobody will ever talk about salary with me, so I just have to make it up. (Digression: why will people talk about their darkest sexual fetishes, but not how much money they make. Do The Corporations really have us by the balls that much?)

My current line of thinking: I read something on HN a few weeks ago that claims top CS students start at $80,000 these days. Having worked with people straight out of college, even the best colleges, I don't think I would have any trouble doing twice as much work over the course of a year. Probably more like 10x, when you include things not dying in production, not having to rewrite the whole app every time someone wants to make a change, etc. So with that in mind, I don't think $160,000 would be unreasonable to ask for if you have a bit of experience and proven ability. You must be worth more than two people straight out of college.

So, I'm going to aim for that at my next opportunity.

"I read something on HN a few weeks ago that claims top CS students start at $80,000 these days. Having worked with people straight out of college, even the best colleges, I don't think I would have any trouble doing twice as much work over the course of a year."

Companies don't offer fresh college grads $80K/year because they think the college grads are worth it, they do it so that they can have their pick of the litter for $100K 5 years later, when they're actually worth like $150K, and not have to spend the extra money poaching them away from other companies.

Your value as a developer goes up pretty fast as you gain experience, but most people have some semblance of company loyalty, particularly if they've never worked anywhere else. Outsize salaries for fresh grads are an investment, a hopes that they can retain the best of those fresh grads for well below market-rate salaries in the future.

It would be amazing if people would be more open about sharing their salaries - but sadly it's just something that is sometimes better left unsaid. I know I make more than my father in law, but he doesn't need to know that. I know that I have coworkers that I somewhat oversee, and they may be underpaid for their actual skill sets. But should they know what I make - probably not as to avoid jealousy.

If only we could all just be open about it. (and of course this all coming from someone hiding behind an anonymous account...)

Check out GlassDoor.com - they are actively trying to fix problem of lack of data about compensation. People post actual salary data as well as detailed company reviews.

Note that they do require a free registration after your first few searches. The registration requires you to enter a salary or company review, which is a pretty fair trade.

I don't know too much about Glassdoor, but what I have seen from some of the other sites they tend to quote rates under the prevailing wages. When I was a exec, I had a hiring manager that reported to me, but all compensation was via HR oversight. They lived and died by one of the salary sites. For a particular position the site said that the market average was 75k. Everyone that came through the door wanted no less than 110k. The guys that had strong resumes where in the $150k range (this was a very specialized role). Because of those site under representing the market, My manager was unable to fill the roll so I asked for an increased budget and kept paying $300hr for a specialized consultant. Anyway, the point is I am leery of the salary sites after that experience.

Agreed - those sites tend to hurt the market when relied on like that - at the same time it would be interesting to see peoples honest salaries - perhaps without mentioning company names but instead just their primary roles or titles. This information can possibly prove to be useful much as the info from this thread has been useful to me.

Wow, I was starting to feel a bit underpaid, but now I'm sure of it. I'm making 72 with 5 years and I think my peers think of my chops highly. I live down south so I'd expect the salaries to be less, but not 50%+. I really need to move to a bigger tech hub.

Remember: the bay area is a ridiculously expensive place to live. This is an area where a small house in the burbs with a bad commute will start around $600,000. My rent (in a marginal neighborhood in SF) is more than a mortgage payment in most parts of the country.

Depending on where you live, $70k may easily match the spending power of 150k in the valley.

Places like that are great for drive-by consulting. If you can find a 3-month contract in the bay area, chances are you can also find a 3-month couch for the duration.

Now you're making a rate calculated for people living in those million dollar starter homes, but with <$1k/mo in real expenses. Take that back to Iowa and live like a Corn Star for the rest of the year, then repeat.

I used to do just that, substituting LA and [random 3rd world beach], and I'd always manage to add a good amount to the retirement fund each year, even after 9 months off.

You are my new hero. Not sure that plan would fly for me due to kids, but I would definitely love that lifestyle.

I researched living in Seattle for a while, so I definitely know how steep the difference is in cost of living. Sometimes I feel like it is a little overstated though.

I think the calculations assume you intend to live there permanently; if you don't, a large investment in a home is irrelevant. I think this factor is what makes it possible for so many to come work on visa for less than a citizen would make: they intend to go back to their lower cost location with money in the bank.

Also, as software engineers, the value we create isn't as localized as it is in many other professions. This fact doesn't account for too much, but it also means our salaries shouldn't be linearly bound to cost-of-living.

On another note, I'm glad to see demand for developers result in some increased salaries. We've been hearing much about the Google/Facebook recruiting wars in this regard. Salaries dove and stagnated after the last recession, albeit it was a radically different situation in nature.

I'm a single guy living in a high-quality studio apartment in Seattle's Capital Hill neighborhood. I eat out often, drink too much beer, and participate in many other costly social/event outings. I've got a car in the garage, insurance(s), and several other expenses for "nice to haves". I spend about $35k/yr. Before quitting, I was making $86k/yr plus benefits/bonus/stock as a new college hire with a strong resume.

I really need to visit the states if beer is that cheap over there.. :)

On a sidenote, to add something on-topic: So a fresh graduate (with a strong resume, granted) in Seattle makes 130% of my 5 years experience salary in one of the biggest cities in Germany. I cannot believe the cost of living is that much higher, so - wow, I'm impressed.

I used to live in Germany and I gotta tell ya, the cheap beer here will deeply disappoint you.

"I researched living in Seattle for a while, so I definitely know how steep the difference is in cost of living. Sometimes I feel like it is a little overstated though."

Well, let me put it this way: I lived in Seattle for nearly a decade, and while it was expensive, my rent was less than half of what I'm paying now. I could live in my own apartment on a graduate student stipend (~$30k), and still save a bit each month. There's no way I could do that here.

It's tough to overstate the cost of living adjustment that's necessary to move to the bay area. It's insanely expensive.

1. 72k, for 5y experience is not that great, but it is not that bad either, if you live in low coast area. I know in Raleigh NC (a good place to live). you can easily buy a house for 200k-300k, while in SV/SF a similar place would cost at least 700-900k. So, do your math.

2. If you feel are really good, compared to your peers, than you:

1. Might actually be good (then start your own thing).

2. More likely are suffering form the big fish in a small pond syndrome. If you come in the valley, you will find out they you may be just merely average at best.

I thought I was really good at some point, but I got "schooled" really fast after moving from Boston to SF. But if you really want to work with the best of the best, come to the valley for few years. You can still go home after it, and have a huge competitive advantage vs. your peers that never left.

Yeah, I thought I was hot shit in college, thought I was fairly hot shit in my first job after college, then found I was barely average at Google. I think that's a good experience to have, though. If you work with people who're better than you, your natural tendency is to improve, and it's a nice way to disabuse yourself of the programmer's arrogance that so many random coding cowboys have on the Internet.

If you're average at Google, you probably were hot shit on those previous occasions.

You should keep in mind the cost of living; everything is relative.

For instance, Kansas city versus silicon valley for $100K.

http://about.salary.com/costoflivingwizard/layoutscripts/col...

So, to live the same quality in silicon valley requires $170K rather than $100K in KC. However, supply and demand is vastly different for tech (see indeed.com).

Same here (south Texas), been working for 7 years, expertise in both java and .net but making mid 70k. I feel underpaid and thinking about jumping ship too.

Similar situation, but I don't live in NYC. There is somewhat of a salary ceiling from what I've seen for the average developer (where "senior" is as far as most typically get). However, I have known a few devs that do multiple jobs (typically supplementing pay with part-time), and contractors can work longer hours or have niche experience that can make a good bit more.

If you're willing to take it to the next level, there are plenty of opportunities. See the salary range on left here:

http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=Java+Developer&l=New+York%2...

Instead of looking for senior dev positions, look for principal dev, lead architect, etc. After you interview for one of those types of positions, you'll see what they are looking for: leadership experience, system and application design, real-world experience with enterprise system/application development (high load, money involved, etc.), flexibility in methodology, and dealing with loads of documentation, process, etc. You usually would have more opportunity to get that kind of experience in a larger more structured shop (banks, financial institutions, large company, etc.). I would stay the hell away from them though, personally. The politics and lack of ability to feel a part of the whole business will suck the life out of an entrepreneurial developer.

I assume that since you are here you are considering going off on your own or starting a company or have thought seriously about it? If you do this, be prepared to lower your salary not raise it. However, if you are doing what you love to do, you'll probably be good at it, and you'll be more successful.

If you don't feel you are good enough to make what you are making now somewhere else, maybe it is time to either start training, or start looking into what you really want to do with your life. Procrastination (which I'm good at) is not going to make you more successful.

Thank you for the reply;

I haven't used indeed in so long, I wasn't even aware that there was a salary range option - I've relied far too much on recruiter presented opportunities (even though I am aware that that is generally a poor decision).

I am avoiding the financial sector as well as larger institutions like the plague - I want to continue to stay on the top of my game and not get bogged down by business politics - even the agency lifestyle seems to do that.

I would love to go off on my own, and willing to take a pay cut (once my wife enters the work force and we are able to do so), but I am sadly not sure how I would eventually do that. Freelancing failed for me, and starting my own business is something that would require more business skills than I have. Sadly, procrastination is also my enemy.

I think I am good enough to be earning my salary, and even believe I could be earning more - my primary concern is that I will be too expensive for the jobs that I want.

Wow, living in Oklahoma these numbers are mind blowing to me.

I understand cost of living comes into play, but 2x-3x what I make currently? If I was making 6 digits where I am would be living like a rockstar, seriously.

What is it like living in San Francisco, New York, Seattle, etc with $120k - $180k salary lifestyle wise with that high of a pay check? How comfortable financially are you?

I'm about $52k or so at about 4 yrs out of school, comfortable (so I think), living in a one bedroom apartment and saving about $2k per month after all my bills, expenses, taxes, food, etc. I don't think I get a bonus. I really don't keep track that much as I don't spend much, I don't think about it.

Edit: spelling/grammar

Info for NYC:

At $110k (but as a sole breadwinner currently) I still live paycheck to paycheck. After taxes I am looking at approx $78k a year; my bi-weekly take-home is a couple dollars shy of $3k and my rent was $1800 for a small 2 bedroom condo but we have downgraded to a basement studio for $500 so we can pay off all our debts (wife's schooling, far too many credit cards, a far too expensive wedding and various other things). So far we have made a huge impact on our debt and we will soon start saving for a house.

If you were living directly in the city, you would need to double or even triple the rent. I do end up paying for it in commute time (2 to 3 hours worth of travel each day), but it allows us to get by just that little more.

I hear ya. I work in finance and I make 110+60 bonus about 7 years out of college. I could afford rent, but I'm living very cheaply to save up for a down payment for a market that refuses to go down. My commute is an hour and change (in Brooklyn) but I hate it everyday.

Sounds like you really are having a tough time of it. 3 hours of commute, and you're not even excited by your job. It does sound like you need a change of pace.

You should look into working from home some days - it'd probably make you much happier. If you haven't read Tim Ferriss's 4-Hour Work Week, it has a great section on how to convince your boss to let you work from home. It's a good book - overrated, but good.

At times I do work from home - but generally it's because I was up until midnight coding to meet some deadline that is highly unrealistic, and not planned out appropriately. Working from home is highly "frowned upon" by upper management and not something that is generally accepted, even though I have everything I need and more at my home office.

Who says upper management has to know about it? If you know it'd make you happier, and you know you can deliver the results, you should go for it. There's always gonna be obstacles you have to overcome. Don't let them stop you.

I am in VT in about the same position (making a smidgen more, probably paying significantly more for rent). However, I didn't finish school and came to this position with only about 16 months of established free lance work.

Well, housing costs alone will be 2x-3x and that is your greatest cost of living. A decent house in the midwest or south may be $150-200k, and in a high-demand suburb on the coasts will be $400-500k.

Here where I am at, $200k to $300k buys a seriously large luxurious lavish home in nice quiet comfortable upscale new or old neighborhood. On the country club or not.

$500k+ will put you in/on Karsten Kreek. Considered one of the best golf courses in the country, it's private, green fees are between $180 and $300+ a round.

Here in NYC, or more specifically within the 5 boroughs, you can get an attached house with a small backyard for around $550k to $650k. $350k will get you a small condo or townhouse if you are lucky. As soon as you want something a little more private, such as a detached house you are easily looking at $800k and above.

No. You can expect to double that if you're at the top of your game. It all depends on the company: those hiring top talent will start at ~$100k.

Agreed. I'm 27 and was making more than $110k/year working for a top company in the valley. And I was a middle of the road engineer compared to some of the geniuses there.

The valley is a bit of a high salary zone. What would a typical developer make in portland for example?

cough yahoo cough

Looks like Mozilla: http://www.ryandoherty.net/about-me/

If you're really good you're probably worth twice that. Considering how lousy so many developers are who are routinely paid $80K, there is every reason why paying someone with solid experience and high productivity $200K+ would be a very smart thing to do.

That sounds good in theory. Everyone keep saying good developers are 10X more productive than average ones. However, I rarely see companies paying 10X salary to top developers. The top salary is usually at 2X of the average, with some industries paying 4X or 5X for bonus, like trading firms.

In a conversation with the Sr VP of Eng in my last company on why so many engineers have become managers, I mentioned that the pay scale for the top engineering position (architect) was equivalent of a senior eng director and it was very hard to become one. He said, well, he could talk to the board to create a Sr Architect position equivalent to VP's pay. The problem is there are more management positions than senior engineering positions like architect or principle. The engineers end up going the management route to get better pay.

But you can tell the general mentality that engineers should not make more than the management's pay structure. It's very hard to justify to others to pay someone 10X of the average.

I recently attended some presentations by a guy who used to be a CIO, missed writing code, and figured out how to get work as a developer at near the CIO-level pay his family was accustomed to.

First step was getting really good; he recommended doing lots of code katas and taking jobs where all the other developers are better than you. As you go, develop a public reputation by blogging, travelling around doing presentations, etc. Be willing to move frequently, the high-paying jobs won't necessarily be local. Generally they're at companies where software is the main product, not just an "IT cost."

Here's his slide deck from that presentation: http://www.docondev.com/2010/05/take-control-of-your-develop...

It's true of almost all professions except those that are solely commission based. The enthusiastic server at McDonalds who does, say, 3X the work doesn't get 3X the pay. They're just more likely to get promoted into.. a different job ;-)

This is the class system rearing its ugly head - managers are "white collar" and for all our technical skill, workers are still "blue collar" (even if you wear suits).

It's why banks pay developers well, which really means, market rate - a hotshot trader is just as likely to be a barrowboy as an Old Etonian.

You could try working in finance. Ideal job is to work as a developer on a trading desk. You probably won't get much more as a base salary, but you can get a bonus ~ 70% of your base. But it is stressful.

you need to work on the trading desk though, the closer to the money you are, the more $$ you make.

Just FYI for anyone reading this. I make slightly less than half what the OP does but I have tons of time to spend with my family, can run off and do what I want whenever I want (almost). As long as the work gets done I can schedule my time as I see fit. I also take, about once a year, month long vacations in other countries and work from there. I make quite a bit less but live in a lower cost of living area and have good "quality of life". In my personal case I find this to be a nice balance.

I really depends on the technologies. I work in mostly the quant finance industry, which usually uses object oriented languages like C++ and Java. The bigger companies (mostly hedge funds) do want to see candidates with at least a BS in Computer Science. The smaller companies really don't care as long as you have a good proven track record and know your material.

In my industry, making $110k for 10 years of experience is low. Probably someone like you would be making at least $130k total, maybe more like $160-170k.

This is a well paying industry though. Firms in the Valley usually are a little lower, more in the $120-140k range for 10 years of relevant experience.

If you are a programmer in web technologies, though, I think you are pretty inline. There might be some upward mobility, but not much unless you start managing people and moving more hands off, which will increase your top line but may limit where you can move (its easier to find a hands on job than a management job).

You seem well paid and established enough where applying to NYU or Columbia to get a BS may make lot of sense. These are expensive programs, but I think getting a brand name degree in the NYC market helps a lot. The BS that you would get from these programs versus a CUNY program would be worth it.

With all of this said: The tech startup industry in NY is growing. You might need to take a hit on comp, but if you join something you think is promising, you can really grow your compensation and standing with a small firm. Check out the NY Hatchery events to start getting a feel for startups. Many of them are looking for good people.

I've fluxuated between 100K to 350K in the past 5 years.

You don't HAVE to ask for a higher raise every time you get a new job. Going from finance to non-finance pretty much requires you to take a pay cut anyway.

The salary ceiling depends entirely on the industry you work for. I would think on average you still should have ways to go especially in NYC.

I'd say ~$180k is the highest you can expect to get in a job that you (or at least I) would actually want as a non-managing programmer. The jobs that pay significantly more (such as hard core finance) tend to pay a lot more because the work is life-shortening, specialized, and reputation-based.

That is my greatest fear - going in to on hands management, or full on management. Hard core finance is more my nightmare and I won't even consider that :)

Regardless of your ability, there will obviously be fewer and fewer jobs at higher and higher salaries - which is one of the angles behind the salary ceiling.

One way to circumvent this is to simply take more equity, assuming you are working for a venture-backed startup or company. In start-up land (ie Series A funding or below) you might find it hard to find anyone earning more than $150k but you could simply take more equity.

Of course you have to assume the equity is worth something but if you are that good then presumably your involvement will have a noticeable and demonstrable difference on the overall success of the company.

Silly question: Are we talking gross salary or the net pay that the employee perceives?

In the US, these discussions are pretty much always about gross pay. People also don't include the value of benefits other than bonuses, and as you see, bonuses are explicitly stated. I gather that in other countries it makes more sense to talk about net.

So how much should one expect to pay as taxes off his, say 170K salary?

I'm not a tax guy, but based off my experience:

Assuming he's single: Federal taxes will be around $47.6k. (~28% at $170k, the 33% bracket hits you at $171,550.) State taxes vary widely. Some cities even have income taxes (e.g. NYC). Next you would have to add in investments, interest on investments, things like that as your income. Then you've got to consider deductions from your home, education, etc.

So it's a bit more complex than a simple percent; however, I would budget for a 35-40% effective income tax rate ($59.5k - $68k) in my state; however, in my state the cost of living is about half that--so taxes would be off $85k instead of $170k.

http://www.paycheckcity.com/netpaycalc/netpaycalculator.asp

I have used this calculator in the past - it seems to be pretty close to accurate when I have attempted to determine what I should ask for in terms of future raises.

FWIW, in the UK, everyone always talks about gross too.

Move to Australia and work for the Government... I know plenty of developers earning AUD$80+/hr on 2000hr/yr contracts (i.e. earning approx. AUD$160k/yr).

It is better to plan your retirement by the time you reach 40.

Expect nothing short of millions. Why would you settle for anything less?

I've been a developer for a third of the time you have, and I earn £17k a year, which is roughly $26,858 a year.

Stop being a whiny bitch, you already get paid more than most people.

The UK is a horrible market outside of contracting. Even reasonably niche developer positions can wobble around £40-60k (US 60-100k-ish) before they start to turn into management roles, and in the south east, living expenses can almost be as bad as the Valley.

Agreed. Apart from large internet companies (or clever small ones)and finance stuff, pay can be poor when benchmarked.

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