The Rise of Adblock Shaming
thesocietypages.org
thesocietypages.org
It helps that I have the site setup to only show a single ad above the fold for the majority of users and don't allow popovers, popunders, overlays, sound, etc.
Eventually, I'd like to add an option to display a message for donation accounts or something similar, but recurring payments and Drupal don't really play well anymore. The only supported add-on in existence is now Recurly. They're pricing was $1,200 a year but they switched it to "Ask for a Quote" (aka expensive but we don't want to say), so it's not something we'd be able to afford for the number of users.
Would you consider hosting your own ads? Is that still a thing? Trust isn't transitive, so it's still a problem even if we're OK with you in particular.
Side note: Tracking is an unfortunate reality in today's market. We use Google Analytics for statistics because anyone that even thinks about partnering in any way wants to see that. They don't trust your internal stats as a general rule, since you could easily fake them. So, anyone that fully blocks tracking (Google Analytics et al) is looked at as sunk cost since you don't count as a user in terms of potential partnerships and you cost money in terms of machine time and bandwidth.
I'm personally not a fan of this sort of tracking and wish there was another commercially viable option. I make donations available for folks who want to support the site directly. Even though we have a passionate community and many of them make donations, the unfortunate reality is that without the ads, I'd have to shut the site down. Either that or turn it into a paid commercial product, vastly shrinking the userbase but increasing the revenue, just to keep it going. I'm exploring some paid options, but many of them require a decent sized upfront capital investment that I don't currently have access to.
For those looking to jump into direct sales and self-hosting, my suggestion is to create a second position of an ad unit you sell through a network and try to sell that without removing your existing ad network unit. Then work to contact the people who advertise on your site through the network and try to sign them up directly.
Chances are you can save them money while still bringing in more revenue as you no longer share revenue with the network.
I would feel much more inclined to donate generally if I could see how much a service needs to operate and how much they have so far raised. Then I can see a direct path of my meagre contribution. I don't know why this info needs to be secret for a free service (though there might be a good reason).
Aside:I wonder if anyone on HN know if its possible I wonder to whitelist and sandbox a site which uses an ad network like adsense? As I generally block networks as a matter of course. (not so much because it stops them tracking me personally.. just because I think they shouldn't be tracking).
I have zero concern for whether sites think “dumb ads” is a viable business model or not. Obviously I also don’t mind if a big fraction of sites just go under because of it. If your day job is to do work for a company that is funded in any way involving modern “adtech” at any stage, I’m not very sorry for your job loss.
I don’t mind ads covering 75% of the page, ads bloating downloads etc. I mind ads that invade my privacy and ads masquerading as non-ads
Except the content, of course -- that, you expect to consume for free.
This is the digital equivalent of saying to a musician, or film actor: because of the existence of a technology that allows me to consume your content for free (Napster / torrents / pirate bay / ad-blockers), I will shed all of my ethics and freely consume all of your music / movies, while at the same time I hope you never get paid and further, I hope the record label / movie studio you work for, goes out of business, all because you dared to show me an ad.
Instead, you're saying it to a reporter, journalist or author. But the message is the same.
And your final sentence is nonsensical. Generally, ads don't pretend they aren't ads. It's content that "masquerades" as a non-ad. http://brandsandfilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/HouseOf... Heck, HN is an ad for YCombinator masquerading as a news site / discussion forum.
I think this may influence your other assumption that it's unethical to freely consume content. The article author uses the example of walking through a city and refusing to look at billboards, but still taking in the view of beautiful architecture. Do you abandon ethics to view architecture?
Imagine if the business models of all the businesses in those buildings depended on you looking at the ads. Would you abandon ethics to walk down the street?
I think there are some people who are ambivalent if every record label and movie studio shuts down. I don't really care as there is lots of art that is created by people who like giving it away for free. Ever since the start of the net, I've structured my livelihood to specifically avoid being in the business of extracting income from IP. So I think I'm pretty well hedged against people going against their behavior to pay for my IP.
I think reporters can be compensated in much better ways than ads, and I actually think that journalism will be better off if not ad supported. Part of the problem we have now is because ads and truth aren't really aligned with the same incentives so I see lots of news sites going more toward ads.
b) Billboard analogy is invalid because you cannot "not see" a billboard. Of course you don't have to act upon it, and can try to ignore it, but the billboard did make an impression in your brain, like it or not. With ad-blocking, it never has the opportunity to make the impression.
>> lots of art that is created by people who like giving it away for free c) doubt it, people sometimes HAVE to give their work away for free -- to get attention, publicity, an audience -- but they would almost always prefer to be paid.
Why is GP under any ethical obligation to consume ads? Were you shaming people in the 90s who muted their TVs when commercials came on? Why is it GP's responsibility to make someone's business model work?
Why are you conflating movie piracy with ad blocking? It's completely different, from a legal and ethical standpoint. And GP didn't even mention piracy.
Yes, journalism is in trouble. Yes, it's an important industry that fills an invaluable role in society. But print media has been beholden to advertising so long, that it doesn't even know how to sell its product anymore. And that's not GP's fault.
Yes, I believe ad-blocking (assuming it works) is equivalent to piracy. In both cases, you are consuming someone's work (a song, a movie, an article) without compensating them in any way, enabled by technology, and without attempting to obtain the approval of the content provider.
Here's the bottom line: You have no obligation to view ads. You can distinguish between OK ads and not-OK ads in your head. Whatever. But if you refuse to accept a site's ad policy, here is your only ethical remedy: DON'T VISIT THE SITE. Reading the article entirely ad-free is no different than going to a restaurant and not paying the bill, or sneaking into a concert without buying a ticket, or watching a movie you downloaded for free via torrent. You are consuming someone's work, without any remuneration or compensation.
Attention is a valuable resource and not one I'm going to give freely to ads that try to STEAL it from me. Computer performance and bandwidth savings are also valuable to me. My ISP gives me a cap. Expecting me to download tens of MB of data for KB of content is a no-go. Blocking ads and scripts can also be extremely beneficial for those that need accessibility.
If you want compensation, require it, put up a paywall. If your site dies because that business model is not sustainable, good riddance. It's time the ad model dies and dies permanently without a tear shed for its demise.
I’ll happily consume it regardless, yes. If there is a paid subscription - good. Dumb ads - good. Blocked tracking ads - good, and I’m not sorry I’m killing their business.
The key here is of course that I find the idea of showing me a shoe ad because I googled “shoes” last year a much more serious ethical offense than downloading without paying for it.
> all because you dared show me an ad
No, again, I don’t mind ads. I mind my information used as a commodity in the process.
And yes - exactly - I can consume content for free and I will, while not caring whether content creators (journalists etc) lose their jobs, because no one watches the ads. And I’m not sorry, and not finding it unethical (not even cynical).
The ads-masquerading-as-non-ads I was thinking of was native ads in news and products pushed by instagram influencers etc.
The next day you visit “All Sports News” (or something) and they serve ads from TGA. TGA’s ad see’s the UID cookie, checks your profile and shows you an ad for shoes.
So yeah you go, how a news site could serve you ads about something you searched for on Google (or any other search engine) without that search engine selling you out.
Not saying Google are “Holier than thou”, yeah they have their own ad network and will profile what you search and serve you ads based on your search unless you opt-out of everything. Just saying it’s possible that Google didn’t sell them out.
But ad networks and the sites that host ads won't jump to compensate you for that.
AdTech made it possible and easy revenu has become the main reason to publish online. Publish anything and generate revenue through click baiting, content farms etc.
AFAIC there’s no problem if these types of sites will go under, including sites I visit regularly like huffpost, thedailybeast and haartez - which mix some quality content with huge amount of fluff and spam.
This model does not work. I’m not going to buy a subscription in order to have adfree experience while being served sponsored content and law quality translations (haaretz has a horrible reputation in that respect) or intentionally provocative content meant to incite rather that encourage debate (again, haaretz.co.il is really shameless in that respect).
Bit of a silly analogy but think about it like a brick and mortar store getting pissed off at you for not looking at the display company X are paying them for.
If they can not prove that enough customers are interacting with the display though sales or information requests they won’t be able to sell the space for as much next time. So the B&M has an incentive to get you to engage with the display and you just walk right on past it... Shame on you...
So you manager of the store says that you can not browse the rest of his store until you agree to looking at the display.
Dunno about you but I wouldn’t want to visit that store again.
My point is instead of trying to turn them into customers you are turning them away at the front door without given them a chance to become customers. Sure some (most) won’t actually buy anything and just browse around but putting up such a barrier will make sure they won’t become a customer.
If they don’t turn into a subscription website and remain advertiser based, how will they ever “convert” you? Would you ever be convinced to whitelist their site?
That's definitely an opinion one is entitled to.
The only place I've ever seen ads actually work and not be too annoying is in podcasts. They are more personal there and still isn't too much in the way. I've genuinely followed up on some companies podcasts I trust has had ads for. I have no idea how to make that work on the internet though.
1. Compromised ad networks are one of the most common ways malware is delivered these days. There's been at least one major ad network compromised a year every year for the last 5 years. I don't trust ad network providers to secure their software, which means I cannot trust any website which uses the ad networks.
2. Ads are as much about tracking as they are about promoting. A specific website may get minimal tracking information but the ad networks above the sites are following me around the internet, and the websites are enabling the ad networks by buying into a centralized tracking system. This shows a disdainful and disrespectful attitude towards my privacy. By ignoring this downside to their revenue model, websites are downstreaming their revenue problems onto random passers-by.
3. Most websites really are taking the piss with the amount of ads they show, and it makes their websites load slowly and look like poop, especially on phones.
Website owners are starting to focus on #3 and that's nice, but if 2 and 1 aren't dealt with it doesn't matter. Solve the security problem, solve the panopticon problem and solve the aesthetics problem, and then we can talk. Until then, I'm blocking all ads and no amount of shaming will make be care about the problems this causes to people relying on shitty business models.
And by the way, solve it as a group. There are billions of websites out there, I don't have enough care in me to bother maintaining a list of good-acting sites and periodically audit them to make sure they haven't relapsed. Obviously I'm just going to block all ads universally, you're a very entitled person if you think I should find enough time in the day to do otherwise. If you're running a site that meets these criteria then great, you're now a community leader. Go put pressure on your peers until enough of them change that I can feel comfortable uninstalling my addons globally.
I installed a domain block addon just for ensuring I never accidentally visit one of these sites again. There are 1000+ other sites reporting about the same news, I can live without a couple of them.
If that’s your “business model” then good luck with that, but I don’t feel shame or pity. I’d like to unblock sites, but white listing only makes sense if you can trust whatever they use to serve ads. Unless they’re hostinf their own ads, I’m disinclined to trust their third party providers and trackers, even if I like and trust the site.
No thanks.
- Slowness in web page loading, rendering and UI responsiveness due to excessive ad embeds and excessive usage of Javascript
- Losing their privacy by being tracked by ad networks and analytics code; especially across sites and across devices
- Auto-playing videos and animations which are excessive and distract from the actual content
It's likely that if the adtech industry had self-regulated earlier and shown some restraint then adblockers would never have become popular.
For those interested, our adblock product is available for iOS and macOS from https://www.magiclasso.co/
Why are iOS adblockers for Safari so rare? The major ones (uBlock and ABP) don’t support Safari.
Why do I have to enable notifications to use the app? The explanation given by the welcome screen doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
Edit: it looks like ABP does in fact support iOS safari now
Notifications are required as it is the only way to notify the app, and users, when we release updates to our ad blocking rules. Otherwise we would need to release an app update every time a blocking rule needs to change. We update the ad blocking rules generally weekly.
I wonder if I'm in the minority, but I really hate any auto-playing video.
That said, if I visit a site often, then I’ll consider unblocking. But if it’s a one-time visit, nope, gonna block.
I don't disagree that content providers need ways to monetize, and that hosting and bandwidth expenses become problematic them costs exceed revenue, but its interesting that this particular business segment seems to use techniques that most other online businesses would consider toxic to _conversions_.
After all, in a time where the end user has some level of control over how their eyeballs can be monitored (however limited), any shaming of potential revenue sources seems counterintuitive.
If the potential rewards for hackers could be kept minimal, it'd not attract interest.
The NYTimes has kept their site reasonable, but I don't want to subscribe. I like the idea of paying per-item, not bulk. That lets users encourage the kind of content (and authors) they want to see more of, while generating revenue for the content that Big Papers must provide (regardless of popular interest).
WHY this topic is always off-the-radar mystifies me.
I find this very smart. Not intrusive and a bit incentive.
"The real failure of adblock shaming is that, on the occasions where I've complied, I then rediscover why I use adblock -- and turn it back on immediately."
That's funny as first adblockers on Firefox used to just hide divs. Browser was still downloading flash object and images, but was not displaying them
Interesting concept. Asking as a layman: is this possible? Is the browser sandboxed enough away from the OS that this is a difficult problem? Is that why we haven’t seen solutions that implement this approach?
Doing what uBlock origin does by loading dummy versions of common tracking scripts is a lot more effective.
As long as you have websites built by JavaScript, trying to do perfect adblocking is solving the halting problem. Can't do that, but we should start fixing the most obvious, glaring abuses (JS need not be able to tell if something actually loaded, no 3rd party host resource, certainly no 3rd party scripts. If I'm putting foo.com in as the address, my browser should only be talking with foo.com)
I can set it up for people that don't understand what they are doing (and I have) and they will not notice anything in almost every case.
As such, I conclude that this generalisation is grossly overstated and you probably haven't tried it to see if what you are saying is correct.
Suppose I say I just want to eliminate javascript entirely - that's not feasible to enforce, but if I could just search the non-javascript pages out there, then a new way of doing things can be bootstrapped.
that's probably overkill. all you need to do is move the adblocking part further back into the rendering pipeline (ie. outside of the DOM) so that javascript can't detect it.
And even if you did manage to reverse-engineer an extension to send a "ads loaded" token to the site, their ad network would update their code a week later. That's why folks call it an arms race.
Lose == !Win
Umm, yeah...
Other than pure rent-seeking every single thing under the sun could be considered a "socialist cudgel" by this logic.
I honestly don't understand how they are trying to further their argument by using this quote in the article.
HNers complain about having to subscribe to both Netflix and Hulu. What options does my 10 year old collaborative writing forum for mostly teens have?
Now that my ad revenue has died over the years, all that’s left is the charity of me paying out of my pocket. Then we’ll be left with centralized sites like Reddit.
I guess is the utopia that HNers envision.