Hacker News Reader

This is a common pattern, when it come to semi-idealistic memes like microservices or agile. I think it's a bad idea to have such hairy, abstract ideas travel too far and wide.

They become a bucket of clichés and abstract terms. Clichéd descriptions of problems you're encountering, like deployments being hard. Clichéd descriptions of the solutions. This let's everyone in on the debate, whether they actually understand anything real to a useful degree or not. It's a lot easier to have opinions about something using agile or microservice standard terms, than using your own words. I've seen heated debates between people who would not be able to articulate any part of the debate without these clichés, they have no idea what they are actually debating.

For a case in point, if this article described architecture A, B & C without mentioning microservices, monoliths and their associated terms... (1) Far fewer people would have read it or had an opinion about it. (2) The people who do, will be the ones that actually had similar experiences and can relate or disagree in their own words/thoughts.

What makes these quasi-ideological in my view is how things are contrasted, generally dichotomously. Agile Vs Waterfall. Microservices Vs Monolithic Architecture. This mentally limits the field of possibilities, of thought.

So sure, it's very possible that architecture style is/was totally besides the point. Dropping the labels of microservices architecture frees you up to (1) think in your own terms and (2) focus on the problems themselves, not the clichéd abstract version of the problem.

Basically, microservice architecture can be great. Agile HR policies can be fine. Just... don't call them that, and don't read past the first few paragraphs.

Interesting perspective. I think that seeking and naming patterns "microservices", "agile", etc. is useful. It provides something like a domain specific language that allows a higher level conversation to take place.

The problem, as your identify, is that once a pattern has been identified people too easily line up behind it and denigrate the "contrasting" pattern. The abstraction becomes opaque. We're used to simplistic narratives of good vs evil, my team vs your team, etc. and our tendency to embrace these narratives leads to dumb pointless conversations driven more be ideology than any desire to find truth.

I agree that it's useful, I even think more people should do it more often. Creating your own language (and learning other people's) is a way of having deep thoughts, not just expressing. Words for patterns (or abstract ions generally) are a quanta of language.

I just think there can be downsides to them. These are theories as well as terms and they become parts of our worldview, even identity. This can engage our selective reasoning, cognitive biases and our "defend the worldview!" mechanisms in general. At some point, it's time for new words.

Glad people seem ok with this. I've expressed similar views before (perhaps overstating things) with fairly negative responses. I think part of it might be language nuance. The term "ideology" carries less baggage in Europe, where "idealist" is what politicians hope to be perceived as while "ideologue" is a common political insult statesside, meaning blinded and fanatic.

The issue is that it is rare and difficult to be able to synthesize all the changes happening in computing and to go deep. So a certain “Pop culture” of computing develops that is superficial and cliche’d. We see this in many serious subjects: pop psychology, pop history, pop science, pop economics, pop nutrition. Some of these are better quality than others if they have a strong academic backing, but even in areas such as economics we can’t get to basic consensus on fundamentals due to the politicization, difficulty of reproducible experiment, and widespread “popular” concepts out there that may be wrong.

Concepts like microservices synthesize a bunch of tradeoffs and patterns that have been worked on for decades. They’re boiled down to an architecture fad, but have applicability in many contexts if you understand them.

Similarly with Agile, it synthesizes a lot of what we know about planning under uncertainty, continuous learning, feedback, flow, etc. But it’s often repackaged into cliche tepid forms by charlatans to sell consulting deals or Scrum black belts.

Alan Kay called this one out in an old interview: https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1039523

“computing spread out much, much faster than educating unsophisticated people can happen. In the last 25 years or so, we actually got something like a pop culture, similar to what happened when television came on the scene and some of its inventors thought it would be a way of getting Shakespeare to the masses. But they forgot that you have to be more sophisticated and have more perspective to understand Shakespeare. What television was able to do was to capture people as they were.

So I think the lack of a real computer science today, and the lack of real software engineering today, is partly due to this pop culture.”

Interesting take, pop X.

I will take issue with one thing though... Shakespeare's plays were for something like a television audience, the mass market. The cheap seats cost about as much as a pint or two of ale. A lot of the audience would have been the illiterate, manual labouring type. They watched the same plays as the classy aristocrats in their box seats. It was a wide audience.

Shakespeare's stories had scandal and swordfighting, to go along with the deeper themes.

A lot of the best stuff is like that. I reckon GRRM a great novelist, personally, with deep contribution to the art. Everyone loves game of thrones. It's a politically driven story with thoughtful bits about gender, and class and about society. But, its not stingy on tits and incest, dragons and duels.

The one caveat was that Shakespeare's audience were all city slickers, and that probably made them all worldlier than the average Englishman who lived in a rural hovel, spoke dialect and rarely left his village.

What is an elitist pursuit is not really Shakespeare, it's watching 450 year old plays.

Thank you for writing up a concise text about the actual problem. While reading the article I consistently felt bothered by the terminology thrown around but couldn't really pin point why.

We really like to think in silos, categorize everything to make them feel familiar and approachable. Which is useful, but sometimes we need to shake them off so we can actually see the problems.

I agree exactly. A concept like "agile" is a great way of organising your own thoughts. Inventing words and concepts is a powerful tool. But... we have to remember that we invented them. They aren't real. That's easier when you invented them yourself.

After a while... it's like the cliché about taxi drivers investing in startups... Sign it's time to get out. When people I know have no idea start talking about the awesomeness of some abstract methodology... I'm out.

[Taboo Your Words](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/WBdvyyHLdxZSAMmoz/taboo-your...)

As an engineer in a large company this seems very similar to management structure. Every 6-12 months there's a re-organisation to split the business into vertically aligned business units, and then to horizontally aligned capabilities. Then back again. It's always fun to watch.

In reality this process has absolutely nothing to do with the structure of the organisation. It's true purpose is to shuffle out people who are in positions where they're performing poorly, and move in new people. It just provides cover (It's not your fault, it's an organisational change).

This is exactly the same, they couldn't say "You've solved this problem badly, go spend 6 months doing it properly". So instead they say they need a new paradigm to organise how they build their solution. In the process of that they get to spend all the time they need fixing the bad code, but it's not because it's bad code, it's because the paradigm is wrong.

The problem is the same problem with the organisational structure- if you don't realise the real purpose, and buy into the cover you end up not addressing the issue. You end up with a shit manager managing a horizontal and then managing a verticle, then managing a horizontal. You end up with a bad monolithic-service instead of bad micro-services.

it seems like they made some mistakes, microed their services in a knee-jerk attempt to alleviate the symptoms of the mistakes, realized microservices didn't fix their mistakes, finally addressed the mistakes, then wrote a blog post about microservices.

That seems... appropriate?

This is the general problem with the microservices bandwagon: Most of the people touting it have no idea when or why it's appropriate. I once had a newly hired director of engineering, two weeks into a very complicated codebase (which he spent nearly zero time looking at), ask me "Hey there's products here! How about a products microservice?" He was an idiot that didn't last another two months, but not before I (and the rest of the senior eng staff) quit.

I'm fully prepared to upvote more stories with the outline of Microservices were sold as the answer! But they weren't.

X was sold as the answer but wasn't is true for pretty much all X that have ever been sold as The Answer.

It's almost like engineering techniques aren't magic pixie dust that you can sprinkle over your project and get amazing results...

This is a problem you get when senior leadership is excessively confident, don’t know enough about engineering and underestimate the difficulties of software. «Why not just do this to solve your problems?» The response will often be «won’t work/already doing it/will have unintended consequences/impossible to do cheaply».

The problem is not micro services. The problem is that company's engineering leadership could not lead their way out of a paper bag.

Micro services is an extremely powerful pattern which solves a bazillion critical issues most important ones being:

* separation of concerns

* ability of different teams maintain, develop and reiterate on different subsystems independently from each other

* loose coupling of the subsystems

Do you have auth server that your API accesses using auth.your.internal.name which does not share its code base with the API? You have a micro service.

Do you have a profile service that is responsible for the extra goodies on a profile of a user that the rest of the API business logic does not care about?

You have a micro service. Do you spin up some messaging layer in a cloud that knows a few things about the API but really is only concerned with passing messages around? You have a micro service.

The alternative is that you have a single code base and a single app that starts with ENV_RUNMODE=messaging or ENV_RUNMODE=API or ENV_RUNMODE=website and ENV_RUNMODE=auth ( except in the case of auth it only implements creation/changes of the new entries and a change of passwords but not validation as the validation is done by the code in any ENV_RUNMODE by accessing the auth database directly with read-write privilege and no one ever implemented deletion of the entries from the authentication database. Actually, even that would be an good step - there's no auth database because that would require knowing the mode we are running in and managing multiple sets of credentials so instead it is simply another table in a single database that stores everything )

That is the alternative to micro services. So I would argue that unless Segment has that kind of architecture it does not have a monolith. It implements a sane micro services pattern.

Should the engineering be lead by a blind squirrel that once managed to find a nut, in a winter, three years ago, the sane micro services pattern would be micro serviced even more -- I call it nanoservice pattern aka LeftPad as a service. We aren't seeing it much yet but as Go becomes bigger and bigger player in shops without excellent engineering leadership I expect to see it more and more due to Go giving developers tools to gRPC between processes.

“Should the engineering be lead by a blind squirrel that once managed to find a nut, in a winter, three years ago”

This made me lol

Agreed. Classic case of cargo-cult.

> To summarize, it seems like they made some mistakes, microed their services in a knee-jerk attempt to alleviate the symptoms of the mistakes, realized microservices didn't fix their mistakes, finally addressed the mistakes, then wrote a blog post about microservices.

You try to remove the critique from microservices, but for me these issues are actually good arguments against microservices. It's hard to do right.

> It's hard to do right.

This is correct; I'd argue doing microservices right is even harder than doing a monolith right (like, keeping the code base clean).

It is weird that they took on some problems so easy. Shared libraries is one point. To get them right for hundreds slightly different services is something I don't even want to think about. The only strategy I can come up with is to maintain them as if they're a 3rd party lib and cannot contain business logic. So you're forced to build solutions around them and not with them.

Then there have been quite a few warnings to not use shared code in microservices.

This was exactly my thought! Despite all the hoohah around the decisions made and whether or not they did things correctly, this idea of "we'll create a bunch of separate services and then use a common shared library for all/most of them" was the start of the end from where I'm sitting... doing this is exactly where the trouble starts with future code changes as the shared library almost becomes a god-like object amongst the services using it: change something in the shared lib and all services using it need to be re-tested. Unless proper versioning takes place, but that, from my experience, seems to rarely be the case. Or need proper service ownership and chain or notification to inform service owners when particular versions are being deprecated or retired... which seems to rarely be the case as well.

Even so, imagine the chaos if frequently engineers/devs need to add code to one lib(the shared one), wait for PR approval, then use that new version in a different lib to implement the actual change that was needed? Thats seems to be introducing a direct delay into getting anything productively done...

>> A huge point of frustration was that a single broken test caused tests to fail across all destinations. When we wanted to deploy a change, we had to spend time fixing the broken test even if the changes had nothing to do with the initial change. In response to this problem, it was decided to break out the code for each destination into their own repos

We went through this painful period. Kept at it devoting a rotating pair to proactively address issues. Eventually it stabilized, but the real solution was to better decouple services and have them perform with more 9s of reliable latency. Microservices are hard when done improperly and there doesn't seem to be a short path to learning how to make them with good boundaries and low coupling.

You took the words right out of my mouth:

>>To summarize, it seems like they made some mistakes, microed their services in a knee-jerk attempt to alleviate the symptoms of the mistakes, realized microservices didn't fix their mistakes, finally addressed the mistakes, then wrote a blog post about microservices.

I read the article a few days ago and was struck by what a poor idea it was to take a hundred or so functions that do about the same thing and to break them up into a hundred or so compilation and deployment units.

If that's not a micro-service anti-pattern, I don't know what is!