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Comment by ryanmercer | Hacker News Reader

Awesome!

I love how the global diving community came together to rescue them, it's unfortunate that Petty Officer Saman Gunan died after doing a run of oxygen tanks to the caves though.

I even liked how Musk came out of left field "grab that tube, we're making a rescue pod!" and then hopped on a plane with it when it was tested and ready. While it didn't really matter I like that sort of thinking outside of the box and how he just dropped everything he was doing and set people to work on it and then took it over anyway in the event it will ever been needed in the future, I really wish more people had that go-the-extra-mile attitude.

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Call me cynical, but I couldn't help but notice Musk seemed to be going about his effort with the maximum amount of tweeting and publicity possible.

> Call me cynical

Okay, you are cynical.

But in all seriousness given the domain knowledge that Musk has at his disposal he was perfectly entitled to get involved.

Tweeting his thoughts is pretty much how he rolls ...

In the end he made a lot of noise and then did not actually contribute anything to the effort.

You're arguing the point that because his help wasn't needed in the end that he shouldn't have offered to help.

But it's conceivable that his expertise could have been useful.

Did any other organisations offer subterranean expertise? Genuine question, e.g. mining companies, drilling, or was it just that Musk made the most noise about it?

My impression was that this was not a good-faith effort to help but rather to be seen to be helping, without any concern for whether his efforts were useful.

Which is itself a bad faith evaluation. I'd prefer to be kinder and thus keep the door open for other such "help" in the future. Fundamentally, he didn't do any harm.

Actually, I believe that other people were exploring the options of drilling a rescue tunnel from the surface. IIRC, there was even the beginning of projects to make a usable tunnel launch site for such a rescue tunnel.

Right, and so you don't think the expertise he was providing could have been valuable there?

Honestly, no.

Based on what.

The expertise you'd want for drilling an emergency rescue tunnel would be a combination of skills related to drilling roughly pipe-sized vertical shafts [1] (mining/oil services, or maybe the companies themselves; I don't know what the exact breakdown of work packages end up being) and remote (specifically mountainous and jungle, in this case) infrastructure and logistics, which is military or again mining/oil services. Possibly a geologist or two on hand to assess the rock layers and identify hydrographic hazards as well as risks such as accidentally causing cave-ins. For the cave diving extraction, you'd want experienced cave divers, ideally ones with good first aid knowledge and cave rescue experience. For any further expertise, I wouldn't suggest anything without hearing the observations from the cave divers who have just explored the cave themselves.

There is no evidence presented that Musk, nor any of his companies, has any of this kind of useful expertise.

[1] Emphasis here on vertical shafts. There is a world of difference between a tunnel-boring machine that tends to remain within a single geological stratum and a vertical shaft that is constantly cutting through several strata of different kinds of rock (that require different cutting techniques).

I think you're winging it.

> There is no evidence presented that Musk, nor any of his companies, has any of this kind of useful expertise

https://www.boringcompany.com/faq/

> There is a world of difference between a tunnel-boring machine

Yeah it wasn't the machine he was offering but the expertise.

I get it, you've got it in for Musk. Fair enough, and I'm not out to hero worship him but lets be fair here - he did offer to help, and did so in good faith.

I added the footnote to emphasize why I thought The Boring Company was not relevant expertise, which you seem to have ignored or missed. Considering that Musk touted what SpaceX could do for the trapped people, not what The Boring Company could do, I also suspect that Musk recognizes the difference.

My contention isn't that Musk didn't make a good-faith offer to help, it's that Musk didn't have anything useful to offer. The end result is that would come across as something like this: https://xkcd.com/793/.

Well, you repeatedly assert that he was acting in good faith, but on what grounds? I think the article Gizmodo put out on the subject is good. https://gizmodo.com/is-elon-musk-serious-1827456578

Agreed. The man is a master of public relations.

In my discussions with people, it seems like he’s becoming increasingly polarizing. His fans are idolizing him, but others see his behavior as attention-seeking theatrics. Interesting to see how it plays out in the long run, in terms of company PR.

I like the guy, I'm pretty sick of his fans

I wonder how many on HN are thinking more about Elon Musk's now-not-needed rescue plan than the delight those mothers of those boys must be feeling!

There is also a tragedy going on in Japan right now with a lot of people actually with us no more. But a few million people with flooded homes is a 'statistic' whereas a few boys in a cave is a 'tragedy' to paraphrase Stalin.

I think that there is a time for offering assistance in a big public way, there is also the 'George Michael' approach. He was willing to help many desperate people that happened to get into the news, however he helped out anonymously or in a way where it was clear that publicity was not sought. When he passed away a lot of people then learned how many people he had extended his hand of friendship to.

"There is also a tragedy going on in Japan right now with a lot of people actually with us no more."

This is true, and a tragedy, but I think it's natural for "12 kids in great jeopardy" to draw more interest than 100+ people who are already gone due to a flood and perhaps couldn't have been saved.

To be honest had the kids been found dead in the cave, it would have been a relative blip on Western media like the flood deaths in Japan or the 41 dead in the sinking of the Phuket tourist boat.

"He was willing to help many desperate people that happened to get into the news, however he helped out anonymously or in a way where it was clear that publicity was not sought"

In this case, talking about it on Twitter was probably an easy way to get in touch with the relevant authorities at the rescue site.

Similarly, when he offered PowerWall batteries to help Puerto Rico, perhaps that made it easy for people who knew where they were needed to get in touch with him.

His efforts turned out to be a bit of a damp squib but that's because the rescue effort was launched earlier than expected due to coming heavy rains.

There was talk about having the kids wait in there until as late as November, or maybe a long process of drilling an escape hole.

If the rescue had begun a week or two later, perhaps Musk's gadget would have been used. As it is, the divers already had a plan that, by the time Musk arrived, appeared to be working well.

But yeah, he tweets a lot about his projects, and no doubt has some thought toward self-promotion.

He appears to follow through, so I can't be too cynical about his apparent opportunism.

He himself said something akin to "I may be a narcissist, but at least a useful one".

Is the second half of this even true? If you create something that is impractical for the mission and won't be used have you been useful at all? I think not.

With a little more time before the rescue and consultation with divers familiar with the caves, they might have come up with something more effective.

But he did also send 700 or so PowerWall batteries to Puerto Rico for hospitals and whatnot.

If he is, I am sure he thinks in larger terms - helping humanity out more than dragging it down.

I would need a spource. What's next dude? The Gates foundation is all a PR stunt?

perhaps Musk's gadget would have been used

The cave was too narrow in sections for a diver to pass through still wearing his cylinders. How exactly was a sub supposed to get in?

I would guess the "sub" was not much wider than the kids. While an adult or kid couldn't get through while wearing a cylinder, a cylinder a little bigger than a kid (or smaller than the torso of a Navy SEAL) might get through.

The problem may have been more that it would be too long to navigate some bends in the caves.

It also occurs to me that, being made of aluminum, the tube would act like a giant heatsink in the cold water, chilling whoever was inside.

But with more time before the rescue, and by consulting with divers familiar with the caves, the problems might have been worked out.

So, yeah, taking the tube to Thailand was kind of pointless, but I guess at least shows that it wasn't just empty tweeting. There was an effort.

The squeeze is 70 cm. The "sub" was designed to fit.

Talking about drilling escape holes. The Dahlbusch rescue device was improvised in 5 days, with no patents claimed whatsover. Wonder if Musk will do the same with his contraption.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahlbusch_Bomb

Actually this started when a random guy on Twitter asked him whether he could help: https://twitter.com/MabzMagz/status/1014251869760249856

I got the feeling that he just jumped in on that, without further thinking (which at least to me seems sympathetic). Got the feeling that it rather hurt their PR as people were quick to call it a PR stunt, which is foreseeable if you mainly think about PR.

I'd rather people do good things for selfish reasons than not do good things at all

Why is this comment flagged? I thought the exact same thing, it was all a publicity stunt rather than a legitimate humanitarian effort.

How dare you slander our lord and savior Elon Musk! /s

Seriously though, there's a strong cult of personality at play and HN readers frequently downvote any comment that is even slightly negative about Musk or Tesla or SpaceX.

Musk was already in China to open a factory. It was a smaller detour than I had thought.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2018/07/10/tesla-c...

Musk had no business being involved. Really, 'inventing' a MVP prototype of a submarine which he 'tested' in a swimming pool and then intended to test for real on live children, when an existing rescue effort underway was working?

This was egoism at its finest, taking public credit for 'helping' with a rescue he wasn't invited or asked to help with. And the media ate it up hook, line and sinker.

Yeah, how dare he try to help.

I don't know what went down but I think he should have asked the people on location what they need. Maybe he did... If he didn't it's just pretty arrogant to spend a little time on a problem you know nothing about and then publicly exclaiming you know a solution.

A good idea now would be to send money to the family of the driver who died. That would be helpful.

He connected with the officials and the rescue teams before starting anything.

It's odd that you admit you don't know what went down but are still passing judgement.

Even if he did, he didn't interfere or impede rescue efforts and gave them a tool they could possible use in the future. It's cool and a nice thing to do, and doesn't really seem like a big deal.

He didn't. The authorities said it was useless for that purpose.

He did impede rescue efforts if the people on location had to spend even one second on thinking about some half baked solution instead of the task at hand. Why did he do all his stuff in public attracting a lot of attention away from the people risking their lives instead of working on it quietly?

Checked his Twitter feed, he talked with a few persons about their gear and how to help with pumps, power etc. So the sub wasn't the only thing he did.

And yeah, he probably doesn't have all the domain knowledge needed, but I reckon he had some help. Example; the 6 or so people seen on the video when they tested the tube.

I really can't see why people are bashing him. Yes, he was public about it, but he also created something that seems to work, and if it's a prototype, that prototype can be used for further development. It feels like nothing speeds up R&D like a crisis.

Let's hope he keeps working on it now and delivers something viable for the next rescue.

If he truly wanted to help he would have done so quietly, in contact with the local authorities. But he didn't. He proclaimed in full voice he had found a solution, on twitter. So he doesn't care. He just cares about appearing in front of the cameras.

His idea was stupid and useless anyway. It just came off as if he wanted to play the hero and build a Batsub in his mansion to deploy it and rescue the stranded children.

>and then intended to test for real on live children, when an existing rescue effort underway was working?

It was a good alternative to telling them to hold their breath and dragging them through dark and claustrophobic submerged spaces...

They tested it to make sure it was water-tight and easy to maneuver. Worst case you throw an oxygen tank in it and put a full-face regulator on each kid in the event it would have filled with water (which I'm imagining they did in the water anyway). Much easier to control a panicking child in a tube where he can't get at your hoses or slam his head into a rock.

Given that the rescue was a resounding success, I think diving them out turned out to be the best option?

They'd already rescued multiple children before Musk even got there, no sense changing what is working. They didn't seem to mind him leaving it behind for future rescues though. shrugs

They were being polite. Narongsak Osatanakorn said it was not practical for the mission.

The closest alternative would probably have been to immobilise the children by strapping them to a spinal board stretcher, and putting a full face SCUBA mask on them [and it seems that the other alternative of letting them swim/walk themselves actually worked].

I don't really understand how the more claustrophobic "submarine" capsule would be an improvement on this.

> Much easier to control a panicking child in a tube where he can't get at your hoses or slam his head into a rock.

Also much easier to get said child into a state of panic by sticking them in a claustrophobia-inducing tube. Also, whatever manoeuvrability characteristics the sub might have had, it was still a rigid tube bigger than the child inside. They were navigating caves, where some of the tunnels were hard to navigate by a single (flexible) adult. I _really_ wouldn't want to even chance getting the sub stuck on a tunnel.

Clearly that wasn't the alternative here, seeing as the rescue was speedy and successful, so your comment is devoid of content.

I don't understand the submarine idea, that is an untested device for cave diving, also human breath from a very localized part of their body, so their is no point to pressurize everything, and you keep the flexibility of the body to not have a full metal cylinder around you. If you need to control someone, some anti anxiety pills and a harness are some tested tools for that.

> It was a good alternative to telling them to hold their breath and dragging them through dark and claustrophobic submerged spaces...

You can't say that?! Those SEALs train ALL the time so they have training to fall back on when things happen. You can't introduce something like this and expect them to use it. They would have no training to fall back on.

The only part I think was weird was him brainstorming on twitter.

I know there is a huge anti-Musk sentiment lately. Whatever you think of the guy, I think it's commendable that he used what resources he had to attempt to help.

People can blast him all they want for his 'egoism', but sitting behind the keyboard mocking him is even less helpful than what you accuse him of doing.

People blast McDonalds for putting phrases about tragic situations on their signs. People criticize them for being opportunistic and capitalizing on a tragedy. So, how is this different? Because he happens to be able to build a "submersible" for kids, he should get a pass? Why can't McDonalds say, "Our thoughts are with you" and get a pass?[0] This was pure PR. Everyone claims he's so smart and all this, but he ignored the domain when he designed this! Those SEAL divers aren't trained to work with a kid size submersible. Human bodies flex and can move around the narrow areas of the cave, this metal tube can't do that. If they had used this they would not have had training to fall back on when everything went south.

Musk injected himself into this situation as only a narcissist can and decided to PR the hell out of it.

Yeah, there's just a bit of anti-Musk sentiment lately, but he brings it on himself.

[0] I don't think they should. I think businesses should stay out of it. Even the ones helping would do themselves a favor and play down their involvement. It's the respectful thing to do.

>>So, how is this different? Because he happens to be able to build a "submersible" for kids, he should get a pass?

Because this wasn't Tesla or SpaceX taking out an ad and saying 'look at all the good we can do!' this was a human using resources in his means to help a situation. In the end it was futile, but it's pretty amazing that they were able to prototype something in days and offer support in the way they know.

Sure, you can argue he's a narcissist, but the public made him that way. His entire legacy and fortune was built on PR, which we gave him on a silver platter. Now all of a sudden it's become bad taste to support him, and everyone flips and expects him to slink away into the shadows.

There was literally 0 net negative from his move. Sure he got his name thrown around headlines, but it didn't take away from the hundreds of people who contributed.

Why is being critical of someone so much more important than acknowledging an act of kindness?

Oh Come on! The whole time he was tweeting about using real rocket parts and the "Space X" team doing this or that.

How can people be so blind to think he did this solely out of kindness? Pfffffffftttt!!

The public can't make someone a narcissist.

I thought the sentiment was fine, in particular sending engineers given that his latest subterranean endeavours. On the one hand there's a whiff of publicity off it, but the initiative is to be commended. I wouldn't go talking up the part he played beyond that though.

One of the things about these kinds of emergency situations is that the major media attention can cause harm by making people be too helpful. In most emergency situations, there's already a surplus of unskilled people on the scene who can help; the lack is in people with particular skillsets and materiel.

Granted, Musk probably is thinking he's providing relevant skills, but the concept has several potentially problematic things (most notably, the fact that you're basically doing an underground canoe portage and the fact that spending extended periods of time in a claustrophobic space is likely to be panic-inducing for the children). It doesn't sound like he fielded the advice of anyone who had actually had experience doing cave diving or caving rescue to figure out what problems are likely to come up. Indeed, from the response of the Thai coordinators, it sounds like the general sentiment on their end was a politely-worded "go away, you're not helping."

So while the sentiment of trying to help can be positive, this attempt does feel like it crossed a tad too far into counterproductive territory.

That's nothing but your opinion based on hindsight.

> an existing rescue effort underway was working

From what I understand, he got involved while rescuers were still considering their options.

I still think it's better than posting emotional tweets about the greatness of humankind. Real world activity vs. armchair activism.

One of the biggest philosophical questions is whether helping people because you see it benefiting yourself is still a good deed... Ask yourself, does it really matter what his motivations for helping were? At the end of the day he was prepared to help. If someone volunteers at the soup kitchen not because they want to help people but because they need community service hours, are you really going to complain about that or call them a bad person?

If the volunteer was telling other people constantly in all kinds of situations that he was helping the poor, many people would turn the other way, somewhat embarrassed.

Yup, but he still did it. Doesn't that count for something?

"They have already received their reward" comes to mind.

when Musk got involved things werent looking as happy as now. the thai navy hero had just died and the 'more people will probably die' sentiment was in the air. Im glad he did it and I hope this will set an example to other billionaires who has enormous resources available for them to help out people in need instead of sipping decades old whiskey on the golf course, like literally every other billionaire did except Musk

I wonder how many on HN are thinking more about Elon Musk's now-not-needed rescue plan than the delight those mothers of those boys must be feeling!

I’m no going to dispute that Musk might’ve been on a narcissistic trip, he admitted as much himself. However in his defense, the sub was made of falcon 9 liquid oxygen transfer tubes and the water in the cave was no deeper than a swimming pool it was just in a cave. Plus the whole rescue operation was very much let’s figure out a plan and try it on live kids as there weren’t really any other options. AFAIK no one has ever tried to do a multiple km rescue dive in a cave, with fatigued and terrified pre-teens who can’t swim let alone do basic scuba.

I’ll take prototype-producing egoism and PR stunts over “not my job”-ism any day.

I found this especially disturbing:

The office of Thailand’s prime minister has thanked the tech entrepreneur Elon Musk for his offers of help. Officials praised his mini-submarine but said it was not needed. Musk praised the "outstanding rescue team" but questioned the expertise of the official who turned down his submarine.

He inserts himself into the event (but contributed nothing), requiring the Prime Minister to kiss his ass (again, when he contributed nothing), then criticizes the people who saved the kids for not using his idea.

I know talking about voting is generally forbidden, but there is no reason for the parent to be flagged. It's not my favorite post ever on HN, but criticizing Musk isn't a violation of HN rules. Several other posts that criticizes him are also flagged (though some of them are pretty useless comments).

Why are the comments critical of Musk being flagged?

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