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Comment by nextos | Hacker News Reader

Snowden's Haven [1] is simply marvelous.

Essentially, it turns an Android phone into a very sophisticated alarm system with real time notifications and streaming. So you can e.g. protect a hotel room using an old burner Android phone.

I use it against some creepy UK landlords and agents, who have the strange habit of breaking into rented flats when I'm not in, and without any prior notice. Totally illegal, but very hard to collect evidence against. Furthermore, contracts usually contain (illegal) clauses preventing you from installing a real home-alarm system. (Edit: contracts usually also ban changing locks).

It's also much better than any cheap alarm system, and totally complementary too. If something starts beeping (e.g a fire alarm or a motion sensor), Haven will notice and message you.

[1] https://f-droid.org/wiki/index.php?title=org.havenapp.main&r...

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Partially related, I had the same problem with the landlord and just changed the door lock keeping also the old one in a box. So until I live here I am the only one with the key, when I transfer I change back the door lock and the landlord is again the only one with the key.

In my state the Landlord can do nothing against this exactly because it is illegal for him to enter without my permission so it is also not necessary (and a forced request is illegal) to give a copy of the key of the new door lock to the Landlord.

Sadly most UK contracts include a clause where they explicitly ban you from changing locks without providing them with a key. If they discover you have changed locks, you will get evicted immediately.

It's pretty sad. In my home country, it's a very serious crime if your landlord breaks into your house for no reason. Actually, landlords generally do not keep a key to the property during tenancies precisely because of this.

I don't believe your experience is typical. I've signed dozens of rental agreements in the UK, mostly as a landlord but also as a tenant, and the agreements have been drafted by several different agents.

Not one of these had included a clause about changing locks.

And also the part about "you will get evicted immediately" is nonsense. The process to evict a tenant takes time: the landlord need to serve notice, then wait X days for a response, then apply to the court, who will then (assuming the landlord has followed the law to the letter) issue an judgement, and then the landlord still cannot have you forcibly removed until some period has passed and they have applied to the court for an enforcement order.

If you have had the experience you describe with more than one landlord in the UK, I'd suggest you look through a different agent next time.

I disagree. I have been renting in Oxbridge with the grand total of 7 different high street agents: Savills, Bidwells, Cheffins, Parkers, Alistair Redhouse and another I can't remember. They all included this clause. Only Savills and Alistair Redhouse were professional and caused no problems. Savills was actually a pleasure to deal with, but extremely expensive in terms of fees. The fees were clear from the beginning, though.

The others are, as far as I am concerned total scammers. I won 3/3 cases in the Ombudsman, so I say this for a reason. Cheffins went as far as taking all my deposit to cover some debt the landlord had with them. And of course they didn't tell me. Simply no reply, no deposit. Even the Property Ombudsman freaked out.

Wow. This is shocking.

I've only once rented a flat in Oxford. It was over 10 years ago, so I don't recall the details, but I do recall having to argue with the letting agent about changing some wording which was totally unreasonable.

Perhaps the situation is different in university towns, where lettings agents often dealing with naive tenants who have never signed a lease before.

I've rented for about seven years and never seen a clause like this. Advice is to change locks when you move in and put them back when you leave.

The landlord can't evict you because of this, and the only reason they'd know you've changed the locks because they've tried to enter the house when you're not there.

Well, change the entire door. I bet it doesn't have anything against changing the door.

> I had the same problem with the landlord and just changed the door lock keeping also the old one in a box.

Don't landlords need to be able to enter their property during an emergency?

No. If there's an emergency they can call 911.

Expect a bill for a new door.

And they have to just sit there idling and watch their house burn up/flood/etc. until 911 finally comes around?

uhhh what were they going to do? Unlock the door and stop the flood?

> uhhh what were they going to do? Unlock the door and stop the flood?

"When your bathroom has flooded, the most important thing to do is to shut of your water as soon as possible. If you don’t know how to do it, it’s good to call a plumber and hopefully they can help you shut it off over the phone before they get to your house to assess damage. If the leak is coming from a toilet or sink, there is usually a knob near the pipes that you can turn to the right and shut off. You will also need to shut off the electricity of the flooded rooms with the main breaker. If you see sparks or smell gas vacate your house and call the fire department, only going back in until they tell you it is safe." https://texashomeandgarden.com/idea-center/bathroom/bathroom...

there is usually central knob outside apartment for whole building exactly for these cases, you can shutdown water or gas in while building for outside for this reason

Pretty much yes. The same thing they are supposed to do when any other apartment they don't live in floods.

You say this with the full understanding that this isn't a $200 laptop we're talking about that's at stake, correct? That that home can easily represent a decade or more's worth of work and salary for that landlord? You're demanding that they must just stand idly by and watch what is effectively years of their life go up in flames in front of their eyes while being prohibited from doing anything that could save themselves and everyone else a lot of grief, just because you demand it must be this way?

Yes, I say this with full understanding of the financials. But also with full understanding that a rented apartment is someones home and a stranger can't just barge into it at will. And the landlord is a stranger, just like any other person in the city or a street. If the tenant gives him the keys (like he would any other person/neighbour) it's fine, but for all other purposes he has no business walking into someone elses home.

(I know laws around that differ, but for example here in my little EU country the landlord cannot enter the rented appartment without explicit consent given ahead of the visit.)

> A rented apartment is someones home and a stranger can't just barge into it at will. And the landlord is a stranger, just like any other person in the city or a street. If the tenant gives him the keys (like he would any other person/neighbour) it's fine, but for all other purposes he has no business walking into someone elses home.

"Just barge into it at will"? In what world do emergencies inside the tenant's home conveniently pop up at the landlord's mere will?! And in what world is running into a house that you own to mitigate an emergency equivalent to "just barging into" some random building you never had and never will have any rights to?

If you believe the landlord fundamentally doesn't have the right to do this because the tenant's right trumps it no matter what, that's one thing, and it's something I can at least somewhat understand and debate legitimately regardless of my agreement or disagreement with it. But to just go ahead and completely and outrightly deny the existence of even a shred of nuance on the topic when there is such a clear night-and-day difference between your landlord coming in to mitigate an emergency in his own property and any random dude off the street just barging into your house at will is just... too wild to be honest. It's not something that can be taken seriously... all it does is completely sucks away any energy others might have to hear you out.

They should get insurance. It is very silly to suggest that they will act as a one man fire department.

Tell that to a relative of mine who had a tenant fall asleep drunk smoking in bed. Matress caught fire, smoke alarms went off, and she was able to rush in and get the passed out tenant off the matress then carry it outside. The fire department scolded her when they arrived 10 minutes later, but she undoubtedly kept the house and all the tenants belongings from going up in flames.

> They should get insurance.

They should probably also get Bay Area software engineer salary, but alas...

> It is very silly to suggest that they will act as a one man fire department.

No, it is not silly to suggest people who aren't 911 responders might be able to put out smaller fires... that's why homes have fire extinguishers nearby. (I hope yours is not an exception.)

Yes, landlords are limited in the reasons they may enter and renters do have rights but at the end of the day the landlord still owns the property. A tenant changing the locks has to be illegal under any sane jurisdiction.

> A tenant changing the locks has to be illegal under any sane jurisdiction.

Changing the locks as a tenant is completely legal in Germany for example.

Actually in my country the law "soft" encourage you to change the lock as soon as you get the rent contract.

The reason is simple: if someone breaks inside opening the door (maybe even just because they were good lock-pickers) the police has to investigate firstly on whoever has the key or could give a copy of them to others, so if the landlord can it is gonna be some rough months to him while they have to check if he sold/gave a copy of your key to anyone with bad intentions.

Some landlords even ask you to change it yourself asap (like my last one)

The page you've linked says "This app is disabled and does not appear in the repo". So it's not really available at F-Droid. Do you know why?

Haven might not be in the main F-droid repo(?), but you can add theirs to install it. It’s also on the google play store and the source is available to build it yourself.

https://guardianproject.github.io/haven/

Based on the wiki it's because the last build of it failed for whatever reason.

So it's actually part of the guardian project, which is a separate repository of also open-source apps and you can enable the guardian repository inside of f-droid and then it will be installable.

There are many F-Droid repositories aside from main F-Droid. Please see here: https://forum.f-droid.org/t/known-repositories/721

https://guardianproject.info/ one is particularly interesting. Haven is a Guardian Project app.

> This app is disabled and does not appear in the repo

Seems they're changing things https://guardianproject.github.io/haven/

Using the F-Droid app:

Settings > Repositories > Enable "Guardian Project Official Releases"

Then search for "Haven" and install the app.

> breaking into rented flats

What? That's so...weird. Why tenants don't change the locks on the main doors as they move in? Is it also because of the contracts?

I can't speak for the UK, but my leases have definitely stipulated that you can't change the locks without notifying the landlord and providing them with a key.

That's really allowed? In my country it is your right to change the locks, If the landlord keeps a key and you have proof of that, then he even has to pay for the new lock.

In Australia (with a standard rental agreement in NSW) you can change the locks (though I think you need to ask the landlord for permission if it's not an emergency) and you have to provide a copy of new keys to your landlord within 7 days. Landlords aren't allowed to enter your home unless its an emergency or they are planning on selling the home and have given you ample warning (and you've agreed). I believe this is just one of those things that is significantly different between different countries.

All of that being said, I don't understand why changing the locks makes a difference. It's very easy to ask a locksmith to open the door for you, especially if your name is on the title (not to mention that most house locks are trivial to pick anyway). Whether or not the landlord has a key is mostly immaterial, what matters is whether it is legal for them to use it (because picking the lock would arguably have similar legality).

I certainly don't change the locks and I'm surprised that people have such adversarial relations with their landlords.

My landlady has the keys, organizes the cleaning lady to come (and gives her the keys), I'm pretty sure she even once dusted and washed the dishes in the sink herself when she was watching over some crew cleaning the ducts.

The whole benefit of renting is not being burdened with owner's problems. Hard to achieve when they can't access the apartment.

> Why tenants don't change the locks on the main doors as they move in? Is it also because of the contracts?

In some countries it's not allowed to change it without permission from the landlord, and in others it is allowed but you need to immediately give them a copy of the key anyway.

But I believe that in most countries it is the case that the landlord cannot invade your privacy, even if they have a key (I know this is the case in Australia). So them having a key is mostly irrelevant (since lockpicking is a skill you can pick up in a weekend -- and picking the lock of a tenant's door is about as legal as using a key that the tenant was forced to give you).

Why would they? 99.9% of cases you have no need to. And it costs money.

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